Ashes of Creation

Mahes · Nov 13, 2024

Looks like some changes are coming around looting other player's corpses. A player will be flagged if they loot another player's corpse. They are also discussing a timer and a more obvious way of seeing your own corpse. Now just add a way for me to turn off other player corpses as to not be able to even see/target them.

I hope players read the patch notes when they implement this.

Daidraco · Nov 13, 2024

Mahes said:
Looks like some changes are coming around looting other player's corpses. A player will be flagged if they loot another player's corpse. They are also discussing a timer and a more obvious way of seeing your own corpse. Now just add a way for me to turn off other player corpses as to not be able to even see/target them.

I hope players read the patch notes when they implement this.

Well if they turn PVP on for doing such a heinous act.. Ill just have to be the Sheriff of Lionhold. /evil-sarcasm

Xerge said:
I didnt get to chance to do any gaming the past weekend but the grief with pvp was known from the start. Steven has this "idea" in his head and he thinks an entire game population is going to behave like orderly citizens, while those that do not should be punished. He mentions if its not political, territorial, or resource related than its abuse/harassment use of pvp flagging.

Imagine that.

Yea. I watched the interview with him and pirategaming and... Im not sure what he's even going for anymore. If the punishment is so severe, then whats the point of even having it? Im imagining the most annoying, trifling fucking piece of shit possible that in any other PVP game, you would kill. But at this point, if he can just zerg you and you're losing stats.. well fuck, isnt that harassment then?

If he wants PVP to only be organized, then he just needs to make it organized PVP only. New World ruleset or something. Guess we'll have to see how it all turns out in the end, but I have a feeling we're in for bumpy ride on this subject.

Daidraco · Nov 14, 2024

I really enjoyed Thor's interview with Shariff.

Fucker · Nov 14, 2024

Xerge said:
I didnt get to chance to do any gaming the past weekend but the grief with pvp was known from the start. Steven has this "idea" in his head and he thinks an entire game population is going to behave like orderly citizens, while those that do not should be punished. He mentions if its not political, territorial, or resource related than its abuse/harassment use of pvp flagging.

Imagine that.

Only polite pvp, then.

Got it.

Rabbit_Games · Nov 15, 2024

Fucker said:
Only polite pvp, then.

Got it.

Here's the thing... Ultima Online was rampant with so-called elite PvPers who claimed they participated in PvP for "the challenge".
But then, the world got split in two, where there was half a world of open PvP, and the other half was not. Most people went to the new non-PvP side.
Did the PvPers celebrate because they now had an entire map where only folks who wanted to PvP, and thus presented a real challenge, now existed? Nope. They cried about not being able to gank folks who wanted no part of PvP.

The point is this: Open PvP only feeds Small Man Syndrome. A mental condition where little people, with no inherent power or earned respect, are allowed to take advantage of a system which allows them to abuse others for no other reason than sheer cruelty and pettiness. You see it with Rank in the military, Position in a company, Customers of a service-based company, and Open PvP in MMOs.

Uriel · Nov 16, 2024

Daidraco said:
I really enjoyed Thor's interview with Shariff.

Watching this right now, it really shows how much Steven knows about MMOs as a gamer himself. Archeage was the best PvX game, and I'm hoping they can top it.

Chersk · Nov 16, 2024

Mahes said:
Looks like some changes are coming around looting other player's corpses. A player will be flagged if they loot another player's corpse. They are also discussing a timer and a more obvious way of seeing your own corpse. Now just add a way for me to turn off other player corpses as to not be able to even see/target them.

I hope players read the patch notes when they implement this.

Not a very good sign that this extremely basic thing needs discussion.

No fucking shit you shouldn't be able to loot someone without repercussion? Wtf

Cybsled · Nov 16, 2024

Rabbit_Games said:
Here's the thing... Ultima Online was rampant with so-called elite PvPers who claimed they participated in PvP for "the challenge".
But then, the world got split in two, where there was half a world of open PvP, and the other half was not. Most people went to the new non-PvP side.
Did the PvPers celebrate because they now had an entire map where only folks who wanted to PvP, and thus presented a real challenge, now existed? Nope. They cried about not being able to gank folks who wanted no part of PvP.

This is what forced PVP players never want to admit: Outside a very small minority, most forced PVP players just want to be wolves killing sheep. They dont want a challenge, they want sentient lootbags. Most players dont want to lose hundreds of hours of progress to shit balance, exploits, or bugs...and in PvP, all of those will be perceived to be at the core of losses.

I've said it for years but if AoC launches with the only options being forced PVP, loot loss on death, and your town getting destroyed, then the game is going to be another Shadowbane: A game that had a semi-solid month and was effectively a dead game after that.

Uriel · Nov 16, 2024

Their goal with open pvp is good imo, and they need to use a harsh corruption system to back it up as well as GMs. It's also not going to be balanced around 1v1. If you're someone who really doesn't want to be ganked in the open world, I'm guessing there will be specs that are great at avoiding/tanking/escaping from it, as well as tailoring your gear towards that goal. Not to mention trying to just stay in safe zones when you're alone, which they've said is not the most ideal way to play anyways, since it's a group based game. It's an open world PvP focused game, just like Archeage, Lineage, EVE and more so don't expect anything else. It's not going to be the "savior" of MMOs, and it's not gonna be the "next big thing" either most likely, but it has the potential to be extremely successful in it's niche.

Chersk · Nov 16, 2024

Albion has proven that PvP centric MMO's (not named Eve) can work.

tower · Nov 18, 2024

I dont really see a huge issue with how PvP is set up in this game currently. The current penalties are overly harsh, and maybe they need to be, as the only way anyone attacks anyone right now in the main zone (and no one is in the PvP zones now since theyre done levelling) is via Guild War. They do need to fine tune the Guild War system a bit since everyone just drops guild right now (or disbands it) but the general idea is fine

Steven is an Archeage/Lineage guy, I dont see him venturing from that vision. In terms of retention I'm still much more concerned about how difficult it is to do anything without a huge group of people than PvP honestly - and I dont expect that to change either.

Mahes · Nov 18, 2024

After having played it a descent amount, I would say the second issue(PvP being the first) is the absolute need for groups to do anything that is fun. Its making me rethink the ranger and perhaps build a tank. Tanks do not appear to have any issues finding groups. It is also much easier to build a group if you play a tank. There are plenty of DPS. Something else I noticed. When the server first started ROS was a 14-19 area. I hit 14th and it became a 15-19 area. Now it is a 16-19 area and I have even seen people wanting 18-19. The migration of level appears to reflect the age of the server. People wanting the "best" possible group regardless of player skill. Level is the only scale you can really use in the game right now and so people are creating optimum groups rather than feasible groups that still work fine.

In short, if you want to group easily I would say play a tank or healer. Then you just build your group and go. This is unless you already have a core group with a tank, healer, and bard in it.

P.S. - Crowd control needs to be a thing in PvE at least. That would provide another path to perhaps easy grouping.

I will add the one downside to playing a tank is the amount of deaths you incur. I have been in groups where the tank died 6-7 times for various reasons in 2 hours. That is a lot of XP debt and it strips you of potential plat needed for repairs. I am not a fan of the loss of items in PvE since repairs cost silver. Remove the need for repair for tanks or allow them to keep more items on death.

Xexx · Nov 18, 2024

Mahes said:
After having played it a descent amount, I would say the second issue(PvP being the first) is the absolute need for groups to do anything that is fun. Its making me rethink the ranger and perhaps build a tank. Tanks do not appear to have any issues finding groups. It is also much easier to build a group if you play a tank. There are plenty of DPS. Something else I noticed. When the server first started ROS was a 14-19 area. I hit 14th and it became a 15-19 area. Now it is a 16-19 area and I have even seen people wanting 18-19. The migration of level appears to reflect the age of the server. People wanting the "best" possible group regardless of player skill. Level is the only scale you can really use in the game right now and so people are creating optimum groups rather than feasible groups that still work fine.

In short, if you want to group easily I would say play a tank or healer. Then you just build your group and go. This is unless you already have a core group with a tank, healer, and bard in it.

P.S. - Crowd control needs to be a thing in PvE at least. That would provide another path to perhaps easy grouping.

I will add the one downside to playing a tank is the amount of deaths you incur. I have been in groups where the tank died 6-7 times for various reasons in 2 hours. That is a lot of XP debt and it strips you of potential plat needed for repairs. I am not a fan of the loss of items in PvE since repairs cost silver. Remove the need for repair for tanks or allow them to keep more items on death.

Alternatively make it so tank corpse last longer, and if looted instantly puts you corrupted if done in PVE zones. Many times ive loaned out silver just to help a tank with repair cost.

ronne · Nov 18, 2024

Chersk said:
Albion has proven that PvP centric MMO's (not named Eve) can work.

Eve also has the exact problems people are bitching about here, and the same crowd of 'PvP-ers' that will lose their fucking minds if any changes are made to it.

It's one of the main reasons Eve never really reached it's full potential - it's quite impossible to onboard new players in to your game when the mechanics allow someone to suicide gank people at trade hubs or whatever. The same is gonna be true for AoC if they don't change it - there is literally no penalty harsh enough (it's 100% a death sentence in Eve to PvP someone in highsec/'safe' areas, but that doesn't stop anyone, they just multibox alts to loot the victims corpse) to stop the bottom 5% of your player base from just attempting to do nothing but grief new players or the otherwise defenseless.

tower · Nov 18, 2024

Have any of you guys been ganked in the open world since they changed the corruption penalties (I think two weeks ago?)

I got killed while levelling a couple times by a rival guild that exploited a bug so they wouldnt get corrupted on like the 2nd weekend. Every other PvP interaction has been via War, in the PvP zones or consensual flagging

Mahes · Nov 19, 2024

I have heard of some players trying out the corrupted system. Everything gets wiped in a month anyways, so yes the penalty could be bad I suppose but who cares? Here is the thing, players are going to find work arounds to the system that then have to be addressed. Since this game has 3 years til release, that should provide enough time to either change the system or fix every leak.

tower · Nov 20, 2024

I just dont get why people are dooming about something that isnt happening. The Asmon situation was an edge case and they already fixed it

Like yeah, sure, the last couple weeks before the wipe people will probably start ganking without caring or you'll have naked 25s running around to avoid penalties. Thats not gonna be the normal game state though. It's like whining about Tumok and Firebrand glitching out or the dupes. I have some major complaints about how the War system is currently implemented, for instance, but it's all early alpha stuff that is easily addressed

Now if you want to talk about them needing to not lessen the corruption penalties I can see that. But from every action I've seen Steven and them take, they arent trying to build Shadowbane or Mortal Online or whatever. They dont want a gankbox. They want people fighting over resources and shit. And you can say that never actually works the way you draw it up on the napkin, and thats fair. But Lineage 2 was actually popular and profitable. And everyone who played Archeage said it wouldve been if the people running it didnt ruin it. This is his chance to find that out

Grim1 · Nov 21, 2024

ronne said:
Eve also has the exact problems people are bitching about here, and the same crowd of 'PvP-ers' that will lose their fucking minds if any changes are made to it.

It's one of the main reasons Eve never really reached it's full potential - it's quite impossible to onboard new players in to your game when the mechanics allow someone to suicide gank people at trade hubs or whatever. The same is gonna be true for AoC if they don't change it - there is literally no penalty harsh enough (it's 100% a death sentence in Eve to PvP someone in highsec/'safe' areas, but that doesn't stop anyone, they just multibox alts to loot the victims corpse) to stop the bottom 5% of your player base from just attempting to do nothing but grief new players or the otherwise defenseless.

I was about to agree and say "grief games always fail or never get big" or some such.

But then I remembered getting ganked constantly years ago in WoW as a lowbie on one of their PvP servers. And it was one of the most popular servers at the time. I leveled past that, but for most people, they don't want to deal with it.

So grief games that cater to the worst of us can make money. But if AoC wants to be more than a niche playground for broken people, they will probably also have to have (like WoW) carebear servers or areas. Which is where WoW made most of it's money. Otherwise the vast majority of players (and their carebear wallets) will nope out.

Kriptini · Nov 21, 2024

Grim1 said:
I was about to agree and say "grief games always fail or never get big" or some such.

But then I remembered getting ganked constantly years ago in WoW as a lowbie on one of their PvP servers. And it was one of the most popular servers at the time. I leveled past that, but for most people, they don't want to deal with it.

Your anecdote doesn't disprove the point when you take into consideration the context of the market in 2004-2006. If you got griefed in WoW, where are you going to go? Lineage 2? Dark Age of Camelot? Same thing is going to happen in those places, and that's assuming that the player knows those games even eixst, and that they can overcome the social pressure of basically every other person they know playing WoW. But in today's market, there is way more competition and it's easier than ever to try other games, so PvP games that don't implement anti-grief measures are basically doomed to fail.

Uriel · Nov 21, 2024

Why are you guys arguing about griefing when Steven already said griefing will be against the rules and bannable?

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