Avengers: Endgame (2019)

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j00t

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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What rules didn't they follow? People keep saying that, but never bother to get specific. Apart from Cap at the end, which could be explained away and doesn't really matter anyway as it doesn't affect the plot, what did they fuck up exactly?

the rules they set up are absolutely broken when cap goes back to the SAME timeline and can't be explained in any other way than by using theories that haven't been otherwise introduced. if cap didn't go back to the same timeline, then i agree, everything else appeared to be using actual quantum physic theories. but as soon as we see old cap sitting there on the bench, it becomes in-your-face obvious that this was all a single timeline.

and like i said, the conversation with the ancient one confirms this. she says she can't give up the time stone because she needs it to keep the universe safe. hulk says that strange gave up the time stone and ancient one has the epiphany that strange did was he was supposed to. she doesn't argue that "YOU'RE strange did that, not ours." she doesn't argue that strange doesn't ever become the sorcerer supreme. she doesn't argue ANYTHING that would confirm the many worlds theory. her point of view is that their present is her destined future.

sure we can IMAGINE that there's a way old cap came back using some stark teck that he got from his new timeline, but the movie does nothing to actually set that up. there's no actual discussion had of hopping from one timeline to another, it's only about creating NEW timelines.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
43,737
52,284
I did not love DS on my first viewing, but found it really grew on me with multiple views,

The AO told us in DrS, that she looked into her own future and could not see past a point. Its interesting how that gets expanded on in Endgame. It really hits you in the face that she new Strange would be the best of the Supremes when she tossed him out her door lol. Another rewatch with this new perspective is in order.

How could she know Strange would be 'the best of us' when she couldn't see past her own death? How come Strange could see past his own death 14,000,604 times to find the 14,000,605th time where he was snapped back to life?
 

Xevy

Log Wizard
8,885
4,105
How could she know Strange would be 'the best of us' when she couldn't see past her own death? How come Strange could see past his own death 14,000,604 times to find the 14,000,605th time where he was snapped back to life?

Multiverse. He literally flipped through available timelines where they start at that current point in time (Thanos on Titan) and found the one where he comes back eventually (one in which he gives up the stone and Iron Man Iron Mans). Which also jives with their current time travel mechanics.
 
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j00t

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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How could she know Strange would be 'the best of us' when she couldn't see past her own death? How come Strange could see past his own death 14,000,604 times to find the 14,000,605th time where he was snapped back to life?

well, on one hand, it's entirely possible that strange was playing around with the time stone more than any other supreme, so he was able to use that to see past is own death...

on the other hand, the people who wrote doctor strange weren't the people who wrote endgame.
 
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j00t

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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i can't remember who pointed it out, but i'd TOTALLY be up for kang as the next big bad. he notices people messing around with time travel and he could see himself as the time police and be like, listen, if you're going to start mucking around with time travel, i need to come in and subjugate you so you don't break everything.
 

Nester

Vyemm Raider
4,978
3,183
How could she know Strange would be 'the best of us' when she couldn't see past her own death? How come Strange could see past his own death 14,000,604 times to find the 14,000,605th time where he was snapped back to life?

A wizard did it.
 
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Tarrant

<Prior Amod>
15,782
9,193
Just saw it. Cap wielding the hammer was one of the single greatest things ever.

Question though. What happened to new Gamora?

Also, I hope this means Thor will be in Guardians 3.
 
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Ravishing

Uninspiring Title
<Bronze Donator>
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What rules didn't they follow? People keep saying that, but never bother to get specific. Apart from Cap at the end, which could be explained away and doesn't really matter anyway as it doesn't affect the plot, what did they fuck up exactly?

Biggest thing I see is that, why return the stones if the 2014 Thanos left that timeline, wouldn't they need to put Thanos back as well so everything plays out correctly?
 

Fadaar

That guy
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11,956
the rules they set up are absolutely broken when cap goes back to the SAME timeline and can't be explained in any other way than by using theories that haven't been otherwise introduced. if cap didn't go back to the same timeline, then i agree, everything else appeared to be using actual quantum physic theories. but as soon as we see old cap sitting there on the bench, it becomes in-your-face obvious that this was all a single timeline.

and like i said, the conversation with the ancient one confirms this. she says she can't give up the time stone because she needs it to keep the universe safe. hulk says that strange gave up the time stone and ancient one has the epiphany that strange did was he was supposed to. she doesn't argue that "YOU'RE strange did that, not ours." she doesn't argue that strange doesn't ever become the sorcerer supreme. she doesn't argue ANYTHING that would confirm the many worlds theory. her point of view is that their present is her destined future.

sure we can IMAGINE that there's a way old cap came back using some stark teck that he got from his new timeline, but the movie does nothing to actually set that up. there's no actual discussion had of hopping from one timeline to another, it's only about creating NEW timelines.

Pretty sure the way the movie puts it, any time you jump the timelines separate. So Cap jumped back to what would have been an EQUIVALENT point in their timeline 70+ years back, but anything from the instant he arrives until he jumps back has ZERO consequence on the MCU timeline.
 
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Hateyou

Not Great, Not Terrible
<Bronze Donator>
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Biggest thing I see is that, why return the stones if the 2014 Thanos left that timeline, wouldn't they need to put Thanos back as well so everything plays out correctly?

Nah. Separate timeline so that timelines Thanos just disappeared so no one ever got snapped. I think. I’m sure some comic autist will come call me a retard and tell you the correct ‘obvious’ answer though.
 
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a c i d.f l y

ಠ_ಠ
<Silver Donator>
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Biggest thing I see is that, why return the stones if the 2014 Thanos left that timeline, wouldn't they need to put Thanos back as well so everything plays out correctly?
It created a different time line. He returned the stones to their timelines, but him staying created a new one. It didn't affect the original time line. You can't change your time line. For like the 50th time mentioned. They just created additional time lines where Loki gets the tesseract back, and so many others. Even the separate time-line where Captain America got to spend his life with Carter. He could even monumentally change their time line by being involved from 1970+, but it wouldn't change the primary time line. The only reason he shows up is because he ported back to his original time line to give his send-off and provide Falcon with a shield that didn't encounter Thanos. Which makes me wonder what the fuck happened on that time line.

It's a completely different way of approaching time travel, but it, like any method, can be hard to grasp. That said, it's confusing that Tony was concerned about affecting the outcome of his child existing, though it may have been concern for returning to a reality/time line where she doesn't exist, which doesn't specifically jive with the rules of said time travel, which he should fully understand. But whatevs, wishy washy wibbly wobbly timey wimey shit.
 
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a c i d.f l y

ಠ_ಠ
<Silver Donator>
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Nah. Separate timeline so that timelines Thanos just disappeared so no one ever got snapped. I think. I’m sure some comic autist will come call me a retard and tell you the correct ‘obvious’ answer though.
You're right. They created a bunch of alternate timelines. Which is why Nebula didn't disappear when she shot her previous self. Tony was right, "you fuck with time, it tends to fuck back", meaning alternate timelines are gonna also fight to maintain their parity. Strange, I assume, kept that in mind when it resulted in 14m iterations. This one was least affected by their shenanigans.
 
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j00t

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Pretty sure the way the movie puts it, any time you jump the timelines separate. So Cap jumped back to what would have been an EQUIVALENT point in their timeline 70+ years back, but anything from the instant he arrives until he jumps back has ZERO consequence on the MCU timeline.

well yes, that's what the movie TELLS you. except then he shows up on the bench 70 years older. meaning he DIDN'T go to an equivalent timeline, he went back in HIS OWN timeline.

honestly, it's really not worth debating over. the movie takes a ton of time to tell you one thing, but then does a completely different thing just for the sake of happy ending for cap, which i can get behind. but the bottom line is that the movie broke it's own rules. it's not the end of the world or anything. it's just evidence that time travel plots are extremely difficult to do and be consistent about
 
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Cynical

Canuckistani Terrorist
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5,251
Cap fighting with Mjolnir brought out that little kid in me, awesome moment.

Disappointed no real smash, but the funny Hulk scenes helped a little.

Even if not intentional, I got a bit of a chuckle at the girl power moment, kinda seemed like like a FU to Captain Marvel, "Bitch we we already kicking ass for years, without your shoehorned in longback" I don't care that's gonna be my memory of the scene from now on, especially with CM getting punched the fuck out of the movie, as someone else put it lol.

Want to nerdrage and pick at non-powered human dude wielding the infinity stones long enough to snap, or even have the power to even influence a single one of them, but nah, I'll let them have that one. Comics have done crazier shit, and I'm pretty sure various non-powered people were using the stones in the comics anyway.
 
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a c i d.f l y

ಠ_ಠ
<Silver Donator>
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well yes, that's what the movie TELLS you. except then he shows up on the bench 70 years older. meaning he DIDN'T go to an equivalent timeline, he went back in HIS OWN timeline.

honestly, it's really not worth debating over. the movie takes a ton of time to tell you one thing, but then does a completely different thing just for the sake of happy ending for cap, which i can get behind. but the bottom line is that the movie broke it's own rules. it's not the end of the world or anything. it's just evidence that time travel plots are extremely difficult to do and be consistent about
But... It didn't. You just don't get how it works.
 
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Fadaar

That guy
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Tony also had tons of data on the mind stone from its time in Vision's head as well as whatever information the various factions on Earth had for the space stone. As ridiculous as him wielding a fully powered gauntlet is, it does make sense that he'd be able to craft a glove to keep their powers at bay until the snap itself.
 

wat

Golden Knight of the Realm
215
193
okay. explain to me how cap gets back to the "primary" universe without introducing something that the movie didn't already introduce

Clearly Cap stayed in in the alternate timeline for 70 years, then build a new time machine for himself, jumped back to the original timeline, drove out to the forest to pass on the torch to Falcon and to ignore Bucky. That seems reasonable right?

What I want to know is how the fuck they can go on and on about how it would be impossible to bring a dead character back because of how they died, but then they bring back a character that died the exact same way lol.

They also kind of fucked with the plot arc of Thor and turned Thanos from a guy who thought he had to do a terrible thing for the good of everyone to a guy that was like fuck it i'll just kill everyone. Also his original plan sucked since the universe would just repopulate in in a few hundred years if he couldn't keep snappin.

The more I think about the movie the less I like it. Also are we just not using spoiler tags anymore?
 
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