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Sebudai

Ssraeszha Raider
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So she's wrong because you don't like her. Got it.
She's wrong because she's wrong, but yeah, I also don't like her. She writes like a teenager, she's arrogant, and she's obnoxious.

Shitty Article_sl said:
Feminism is, in essence, a social justice movement?it wants to take the side of the alienated and the marginalized, and that includes alienated and marginalized men.
Patently untrue. In no significant way does feminism even attempt to acknowledge the existence of problems facing men. Which is fine in and of itself, but don't pretend like it does, because it doesn't. Talk is cheap.

Shitty Article_sl said:
It is nearly impossible to address problems facing women?especially problems in which men are even tangentially culpable?without comments sections devolving into cries of "misandry!" from men and replies of "misandry isn't real" from women.
No it isn't.

Shitty Article_sl said:
Unfortunately, the reason that "fem" is a part of the word "feminism" is that the world is not, currently, an equal, safe, and just place for women (and other groups as well?in its idealized form, intersectional feminism seeks to correct all those imbalances). To remove the gendered implications of the term is to deny that those imbalances exist, and you can't make problems disappear just by changing "feminism" to "humanism" and declaring the world healed. That won't work.
The world disadvantages women in some ways, and men in others. Discounting the humanist approach is simply an attempt to deny this fact and focus solely on the problems of women at the expense of men.

Shitty Article_sl said:
We live in a world of measurable, glaring inequalities. Look at politicians, CEOs, film directors, law enforcement officers, comedians, tech professionals, executive chefs, mathematicians, and on and on and on?these fields are dominated by men. (And, in many cases, white men.)To claim that there is no systemic inequality keeping women and minorities out of those jobs is to claim that men (people like you) are just naturally better.If there is no social structure favoring men, then it stands to reason that men simply work harder and/or are more skilled in nearly every high-level specialized field.
No, it isn't. There are alternative explanations such as, maybe women just aren't as interested in these fields. I mean if you think the lack of female mathematicians is a problem, maybe you should've gone for a degree in mathematics instead of that degree in gender studies? Solving the gender imbalance in these fields doesn't just require tearing down institutionalized sexism.It also requires women to actually want to work in these fields, and you don't get to blame me for the fact that they don't.

---

The article is bad and you should feel bad.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Mist, are you being contrary just to be contrary? :p

Also, I know I argued against you on "white men blocking women from politics"--but I didn't argue against you on the fact that there ARE a small group of men and companies controlling campaign finance in this country. Instead, I just argued that it's silly to assume they wouldn't buy a woman as readily as a man. However; it's not silly to assume that these people would whore out the U.S.'s power, on the tax payers dime, in order to increase the capital they have to work with, I don't think anyway--it doesn't require some big stretch to believe people are greedy.
It was a bit of rhetorical trap, yes.

My argument wasn't that the small group of rich white men wouldn't try to buy female candidates. Of course they would. It was that women are better at detecting which female candidates are blatant whores, because women have innate (though occassionally overactive) whore-dar. That was my whole 'genuine' argument, as to why women end up not voting for a decent share of the female candidates that get put up.

I certainly didn't say I didn't subscribe to elite theory, just not to the extreme degree you do. My problem is that while I don't deny this cabal of rich white men wields much power, I don't think these men are ultimately that smart, and the idea that everything is under their control seems unlikely because it's impossible to make plans of that complexity that survive contact with the real world. Attributing what's going on in the world to some confluence of greed, corruption, ineptitude and stupidity go a long way towards explaining things better than simple elite theory.
 

Tanoomba

ジョーディーすれいやー
<Banned>
10,170
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In no significant way does feminism even attempt to acknowledge the existence of problems facing men. Which is fine in and of itself, but don't pretend like it does, because it doesn't. Talk is cheap.
Of course it does. Make it OK for men to be stay-at-home dads and you relieve a significant amount of pressure currently on males to concentrate exclusively on their careers. Remove the expectation that all men deserve sex by default and both depression and rape go down. A lot of the problems facing men today are the results of decisions made by men, even if those decisions made sense when they were made. Start to undo some of those decisions (yes, including the men-only draft) and both genders benefit. Feminism gives men dramatically more freedom: Freedom from stereotypes, freedom from unreasonable expectations, freedom from outdated gender roles that have become obsolete in today's society. Are you anti-freedom?


No it isn't.
Yes, it is. We've seen hundreds of examples of just that on this board.


The world disadvantages women in some ways, and men in others. Discounting the humanist approach is simply an attempt to deny this fact and focus solely on the problems of women at the expense of men.
Oh, "the world" does that? "The world" disadvantages men and women? Darn that world!Societydisadvantages people, and some groups of people more disproportionately than others.


No, it isn't. There are alternative explanations such as, maybe women just aren't as interested in these fields. I mean if you think the lack of female mathematicians is a problem, maybe you should've gone for a degree in mathematics instead of that degree in gender studies? Solving the gender imbalance in these fields doesn't just require tearing down institutionalized sexism.It also requires women to actually want to work in these fields, and you don't get to blame me for the fact that they don't.
Cop-out. What proof do you have that women aren't interested in these fields? Besides, even if that were the case, it's entirely possible that this lack of interest is a direct result of society emphasizing these fields as male-centric. Remove gender-associations from fields and we allow any interests to develop in any person of any gender.


The article is bad and you should feel bad.
It's a fantastic article and I feelfabulous. You got nothing, friend.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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I certainly didn't say I didn't subscribe to elite theory, just not to the extreme degree you do. My problem is that while I don't deny this cabal of rich white men wields much power, I don't think these men are ultimately that smart, and the idea that everything is under their control seems unlikely because it's impossible to make plans of that complexity that survive contact with the real world. Attributing what's going on in the world to some confluence of greed, corruption, ineptitude and stupidity go a long way towards explaining things better than simple elite theory.
Theyaren't that smart, but they pay people a significant amount of money to work out these strategies; and these stratagies are intelligent but only if viewed from a specific perspective (I'll explain below). But no, none of these plans will remain intact during real world application--but I think you're attributing the failures of these plans tostupiditywhat youshouldbe attributing to a disregard ofconsequence. A good smaller scale example would be, since I brought him up earlier, Mitt Romney leading Ampad into financial ruin. From the outside looking in, the constant risk assumption by taking on just ruinous amounts of debt seems just supremely stupid--it was a perfect recipe for a company to go bankrupt during any market fluctuation that would have presented a credit crisis (And that's exactly what happened).

However;we(The outside observer who is intrinsically connected to the market and suffers from collapses of job producing domestic companies) only see stupidity because we assume failure comes with consequence; and we are actually affected by the consequences of that failure--in short, our judgment is biased by our perspective. This isn't really the case past a certain point. Romney's assets were perfectly shielded from the collapse of the company--and his main wealth draw was actually short term bonuses and cash outs from sales figures, which he drove furiously high with an uteneble strategy of high debt load and risky market acquisitions. Because, again, his main rationality wasn't long term--it was obtaining the next cash out. Once the whole thing came down, because of his legal and financial status, he could simply cut ties, and move on.

This works on a larger scale too, even a national one. The companies who stood to profit, for example, from Iraq, didn't lose anything if the U.S. was lead into a full scale debacle. So AT WORST, they would have stood on the sidelines while soldiers died and the country plunged hilariously into debt--but at best, they'd have an entire new market to explore and dominate. So, since you're a student of statistics--doing a simple game theory on the process of supporting the war--they'd have either a win, or a neutral outcome; on average, the effect, regardless out outcome, is anet gain. So obviously their plan is rational from their point of view. (But only because they have a lack of consequence). (And yes, it's a bit more complex than this; companies need to forecast for market recessions brought on by government debt, ect; but this is usually what it comes down to.)

So, no, it's not some evil geniuses at work. It's simply a bunch of guys that win if things go well, anddon't loseif they don't. Of course you're going to see them consistently push for these things that seem ruinous and stupid to us--but for them, it's +1 or 0, never a -1. Without that loss; without the potential of consequence, it becomes, actually, stupid for them NOT to advocate for reckless and destructive behavior. (An analogy would be, in black jack, if you kept the winnings but the house at your losses--your strategy then instantly becomes bet recklessly every time,no matter what. Because even the smallest chance of a gain is a net positive, even if your losses are enormous.)

But you know the saying; old men make wars, young men fight them. It's just another way of saying the people who profit from the risk, aren't the ones who take the risk.
 

Famm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
11,041
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My argument wasn't that the small group of rich white men wouldn't try to buy female candidates. Of course they would. It was that women are better at detecting which female candidates are blatant whores, because women have innate (though occassionally overactive) whore-dar.
Demands evidence based arguments, expects us to buy into some mythological "female intuition".
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
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Regardless, I don't think these guys are clever enough to turn the right knobs on the public consciousness to get the public support for a draft for a literal war for oil. A draft is just too likely to backfire. Other than massive food shortages, a draft is one of the few things that would trigger open rebellion in America, and it would take too more military power to put down such a rebellion than you would get from a draft.

I also don't even know where they would need a draft. More and more military operations are being conducted by what are basically mercenary armies.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Demands evidence based arguments, expects us to buy into some mythological "female intuition".
Evidence based arguments a good, but solid logical arguments work as well, so long as your premises are sound. Lithose isn't providing a lot of evidence for most of what he's saying, but you'll support it because it flows logically from a set of premises that seem defensible, and that's fine. Plenty of good, productive thinking was done long before the era of data-driven analysis, strictly through the use of logical arguments.

I wasn't being entirely serious. Women are more skeptical of other women who appear to be acting like whores.

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, women know this because women have the ultimate privilege, it's called 'Act like a whore.' It's basically the Konami Code for real life. But as soon as you use it, everyone knows you cheated.

To which you might say "But Contra was hard even WITH 30 lives, Mist." And that my friend, is what these MRA idiots sound like, complaining about how hard life is when they started off at a massive advantage. :p
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
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I wasn't being entirely serious. Women are more skeptical of other women who appear to be acting like whores.
Women are haters and are unreasonably hard on other women?

STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES NOBODY HAS EVER SAID THIS BEFORE

Tell me more
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Who said it was unreasonable?

If men were better at calling out male candidates for acting like whores, our political system would be way less fucked up.

The fact is, menlikewhores, and expect everyone to act like a whore if given the opportunity. And that is why shit is fucked up. Men just don't hold men accountable for selling out their integrity for money.

I would say that women areappropriately and justifiablyhard on women who are acting like whores.
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
<Silver Donator>
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Logic and reason < uniquely feminine characteristics.

`Radical feminism' has a populist interpretation as very outrageous, the far side of the pendulum swing, almost a swear word or insult. This is not the meaning understood within feminist theory. Radical feminism represents a body of theoretical work where the hierarchy of the binary opposition male/female is reversed ie the female is privileged. From this theoretical base we see political action in areas such as rape crisis centres, women's refuges, anti pornography groups and an emphasis on `women's culture'. The logical extension of radical feminism is separatism. It also relies on essentialist and universalist and ahistorical concepts of `woman' ie that women possess some quality of femaleness that is unchanged across race, culture and history. We see some parallels in Bahai circles eg when women are valorised for being more nurturing, tenderhearted and compassionate and this is then extended to imply that all women have these qualities and all men don't. Readers not familiar with scholarly work in feminist theory may be familiar with names like Andrea Dworkin, Dale Spender, Mary Daly and Catherine MacKinnon as writers who have popularised this theoretical position.Radical feminists would often characterise `reason' as a construct of masculine oppression and inferior to women's intuition.
 

Leadsalad

Cis-XYite-Nationalist
6,151
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A draft will never work for women. They're born with a get out of jail free card. Anecdotal evidence from guys in units that deploy usually only 10-20% of the women in the unit get deployed. The rest are suddenly pregnant by the ship out date.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Why is it cool for you to make sweeping generalizations about one gender?
No, see, it's just that women are more aware of the whole 'act like a whore' cheat.

Thought experiment: Two people are watching a third person play Contra. One person is aware of the existence of the Konami code, sees the 30 lives and knows he cheated. The other person isn't aware of the Konami Code and just assumes the guyearneda lot of extra lives, or that everyone gets that many lives by default.
 

Leadsalad

Cis-XYite-Nationalist
6,151
12,641
And that my friend, is what these MRA idiots sound like, complaining about how hard life is when they started off at a massive advantage. :p
Having a vagina and tits is pretty much a +infinity advantage if you know how to use them. Being a whore is profitable and men, contrary to whatever idiotic ideal you hold dear, don't hate whores at all.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Having a vagina and tits is pretty much a +infinity advantage if you know how to use them. Being a whore is profitable and men, contrary to whatever idiotic ideal you hold dear, don't hate whores at all.
You're just stating exactly the same thing that I'm stating. Men love whores, and don't hold other men accountable for being whores. Many men secretly or even openly want tobewhores. And that's why our political system is so fucked.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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If you dont believe that women arent interested in science, engineering or math jobs just look at female enrollment rates in these university programs, they are virtually nonexistent.

The only people women can blame for lack of female mathematicians is themselves.
 

Sebudai

Ssraeszha Raider
12,022
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Yes, it is. We've seen hundreds of examples of just that on this board.
No it isn't. It is trivial to talk about the issues women face without the conversation devolving into cries of misandry. Feminists sometimes struggle with this nowadays because concepts which are patently insulting to all men everywhere have recently gained popularity within the movement.

Oh, "the world" does that? "The world" disadvantages men and women? Darn that world!Societydisadvantages people, and some groups of people more disproportionately than others.
'World' is sometimes used as a synonym for 'society.' Aren't you a teacher?

Cop-out.What proof do you have that women aren't interested in these fields?Besides, even if that were the case, it's entirely possible that this lack of interest is a direct result of society emphasizing these fields as male-centric. Remove gender-associations from fields and we allow any interests to develop in any person of any gender.
Statistical data. Less women major in math (for example). I don't have to rely on conjecture like you do. We have statistical data detailing the majors that people willingly choose for themselves. If you think there's some significant cultural force out their that encourages women to major in art instead of math, prove it. You don't just get to beg the fuckin' question and then smugly fold your arms like you actually contributed to the discussion.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
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Men are more likely to enter into a field based primarily on expected income. Women are more likely to go into the fields they enjoy. As a group they aren't making their life decisions around needing to make X dollars to buy Y status items to attract Z members of the opposite sex.