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khalid

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No we're not. Take two equally attractive women and give one a degree in gender studies and the other a degree in engineering. Does anyone honestly believe that more men would be attracted to the former than the latter?
First, your example is absurd because no other degree has a more negative connotation amongst men then gender studies. If instead you switched her degree to something more neutral, yes actually. Many men would be turned off by a woman with a degree in engineering.

Also, I wasn't talking about what happens as an adult in relationships. It is what is drummed into little girl's heads as they are kids. From movies, books, tv, etc. The culture.
 

Lithose

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The best, most extensive data I've ever seen on the topic put the gap at 8% for women across the board, 4% for single women. I'm trying to find the exact paper. It attempted to statistically factor out personal choices such as having a family, wanting more secure jobs or jobs with better benefits versus jobs with higher pay. So once you factored everything else out, there was this 4-8% unexplained gap.

It's going to take me a long time to dig up the paper because it was very unpopular, as feminist academics didn't like the results because it made them seem like less of a victim than they wanted to be seen as. But 8% is still damning, so I never understood that reaction. The problem is it's not conclusive exactly what exactly it was damning, which is why I purposefully didn't use a word like discrimination.
It's the AAUW paper,graduating the pay gap. It corrects for major choice, hours worked, time in field and a host of other factors and comes down to the 8% figure. It's a pretty stellar report.

I think the last 8% can be chalked up to the risk of extra cost inherent with women. Due to maternity leave, women have a risk of some human capital losses for certain markets. If you've invested a couple hundred thousand in educating, and then teaching industry norms, to a worker--especially a professional like a doctor or engineer, the loss of a year or so due to 2.5 children is a significant profit hit. And that's, of course, not even including the actual cost of maternity leave or the fact that mothers often used more sick/vacation time to deal with children.

This is just my opinion, of course. It is a form of discrimination, sure; but it's a pretty rational form of discrimination--it really comes down to dollar and cents. I think, on the whole, not splitting maternity leave among genders really has hurt women in professional fields--but again, just my opinion.

4-8% in what context? Just "all women collectively make 4-8% less than all men" or are they doing surveys of particular jobs?
It's 4-8% when things like education, experience, specific industry and specialization (Not just crappy BLS fields, which mosh together paralegals and corporate lawyers, for example.), hours per week/year and a host of other factors. It comes out to a difference that floats between 4 and 8.
 

Mist

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4-8% in what context? Just "all women collectively make 4-8% less than all men" or are they doing surveys of particular jobs?
You're not listening. If you just go collectively, it's that 77% figure that gets tossed out all the time by lefties and feminists.

The 4-8% was an exhaustive statistical study, attempting to statistically account for every legitimate factor you can think of, like the ones I listed and many more.

Much Minitab was used. Many chis, much squares, such T-tests, wow.

Google is failing me because there's just too many bullshit articles about the bullshit 23% pay gap. I'm gonna have to use a scholarly article search and that shit is taking forever and it's still going to be buried amongst shit.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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It's the AAUW paper,graduating the pay gap. It corrects for major choice, hours worked, time in field and a host of other factors and comes down to the 8% figure. It's a pretty stellar report.

I think the last 8% can be chalked up to the risk of extra cost inherent with women. Due to maternity leave, women have a risk of some human capital losses for certain markets. If you've invested a couple hundred thousand in educating, and then teaching industry norms, to a worker--especially a professional like a doctor or engineer, the loss of a year or so due to 2.5 children is a significant profit hit. And that's, of course, not even including the actual cost of maternity leave or the fact that mothers often used more sick/vacation time to deal with children.

This is just my opinion, of course. It is a form of discrimination, sure; but it's a pretty rational form of discrimination--it really comes down to dollar and cents. I think, on the whole, not splitting maternity leave among genders really has hurt women in professional fields--but again, just my opinion.



It's 4-8% when things like education, experience, specific industry and specialization (Not just crappy BLS fields, which mosh together paralegals and corporate lawyers, for example.), hours per week/year and a host of other factors. It comes out to a difference that floats between 4 and 8.
No, that's not it. That's only 1 year after graduation. This was way more exhaustive, and specifically accounted for things that happen over the course of a career, like the fact that women are more risk-averse and therefore less likely to leave one company to take only a slightly higher paying job at another company that had more room for growth.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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It's the AAUW paper,graduating the pay gap. It corrects for major choice, hours worked, time in field and a host of other factors and comes down to the 8% figure. It's a pretty stellar report.

I think the last 8% can be chalked up to the risk of extra cost inherent with women. Due to maternity leave, women have a risk of some human capital losses for certain markets. If you've invested a couple hundred thousand in educating, and then teaching industry norms, to a worker--especially a professional like a doctor or engineer, the loss of a year or so due to 2.5 children is a significant profit hit. And that's, of course, not even including the actual cost of maternity leave or the fact that mothers often used more sick/vacation time to deal with children.

This is just my opinion, of course. It is a form of discrimination, sure; but it's a pretty rational form of discrimination--it really comes down to dollar and cents. I think, on the whole, not splitting maternity leave among genders really has hurt women in professional fields--but again, just my opinion.



It's 4-8% when things like education, experience, specific industry and specialization (Not just crappy BLS fields, which mosh together paralegals and corporate lawyers, for example.), hours per week/year and a host of other factors. It comes out to a difference that floats between 4 and 8.
To what then do they attribute the 4-8% gap?
 

Sebudai

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First, your example is absurd because no other degree has a more negative connotation amongst men then gender studies. If instead you switched her degree to something more neutral, yes actually. Many men would be turned off by a woman with a degree in engineering.
Fair point about gender studies being an extreme example, but I'm not convinced with regards to the second point. Like, what even is a "neutral" degree?

Also, I wasn't talking about what happens as an adult in relationships. It is what is drummed into little girl's heads as they are kids. From movies, books, tv, etc. The culture.
The female character that ignores cultural expectations, eschews traditional gender roles and stereotypes, and breaks through a "glass ceiling" has been a staple trope in all forms of media for my entire life, and I live amongst what is probably the most patriarchal culture in this entire country.
 

Lithose

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No, that's not it. That's only 1 year after graduation. This was way more exhaustive, and specifically accounted for things that happen over the course of a career, like the fact that women are more risk-averse and therefore less likely to leave one company to take only a slightly higher paying job at another company that had more room for growth.
Yeah, I know the one you're talking about, it was lambasted for being a conservative piece of propaganda. I want to say it began with a C, I'll have to think about it. I went from that one, to the AAUW because it has less variables--the one year post graduation eliminates a bunch of the variables that come with full careers.
 

Lithose

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To what then do they attribute the 4-8% gap?
They don't, they list the 6.6% as unexplained. There were no other correlations they could find. In other studies, I've seen it explained really as just potential capital loss (You're most likely going to lose a woman due to children at some point, even if she's dedicated, so some jobs might pass them over--ect, but that's conjecture, not a solid study inference). Another popular theory is, as Mist said, women are naturally more risk averse; but this study is limited to first year, so I'm not sure how much of an effect that would have (Since risk often comes up in swapping employment during your career. It could still play a role; as first job selection can have a range of risk factors, too.)
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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The female character that ignores cultural expectations, eschews traditional gender roles and stereotypes, and breaks through a "glass ceiling" has been a staple trope in all forms of media for my entire life, and I live amongst what is probably the most patriarchal culture in this entire country.
 

Fifey

Trakanon Raider
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No, that's not it. That's only 1 year after graduation. This was way more exhaustive, and specifically accounted for things that happen over the course of a career, like the fact that women are more risk-averse and therefore less likely to leave one company to take only a slightly higher paying job at another company that had more room for growth.
To me, that's a pretty solid reason that they deserve the 8% gap. If you aren't willing to take risks in your career, you shouldn't expect the same pay.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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They don't, they list the 6.6% as unexplained. There were no other correlations they could find. In other studies, I've seen it explained really as just potential capital loss (You're most likely going to lose a woman due to children at some point, even if she's dedicated, so some jobs might pass them over--ect, but that's conjecture, not a solid study inference). Another popular theory is, as Mist said, women are naturally more risk averse; but this study is limited to first year, so I'm not sure how much of an effect that would have (Since risk often comes up in swapping employment during your career. It could still play a role as maybe men will go into a more competitive environment, or an entrepreneurial company with higher chance of closing ect)
Did not say 'naturally.' Economists have done this study. Women are less risk averse in more equal societies, and in the handful of matriarchal tribes studied, the women are actually greater risk takers than the men when tested with economic game theory.

So having political or social power makes you more likely to be a risk taker. You're more likely to risk something if you think you can earn it back quickly if you lose it.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
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They don't, they list the 6.6% as unexplained. There were no other correlations they could find. In other studies, I've seen it explained really as just potential capital loss (You're most likely going to lose a woman due to children at some point, even if she's dedicated, so some jobs might pass them over--ect, but that's conjecture, not a solid study inference). Another popular theory is, as Mist said, women are naturally more risk averse; but this study is limited to first year, so I'm not sure how much of an effect that would have (Since risk often comes up in swapping employment during your career. It could still play a role as maybe men will go into a more competitive environment, or an entrepreneurial company with higher chance of closing ect)
Did not say 'naturally.' Economists have done this study. Women are less risk averse in more equal societies, and in the handful of matriarchal tribes studied, the women are actually greater risk takers than the men when tested with economic game theory.

So having political or social power makes you more likely to be a risk taker. You're more likely to risk something if you think you can earn it back quickly if you lose it. There's nothing innate or natural about it.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
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Economists have done this study. Women are less risk averse in more equal societies, and in the handful of matriarchal tribes studied, the women are actually greater risk takers than the men when tested with economic game theory.

So having political or social power makes you more likely to be a risk taker. You're more likely to risk something if you think you can earn it back quickly if you lose it. There's nothing innate or natural about it.
Heard this on a freakonomics podcast a month ago or so. Pretty neat stuff.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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Did not say 'naturally.' Economists have done this study. Women are less risk averse in more equal societies, and in the handful of matriarchal tribes studied, the women are actually greater risk takers than the men when tested with economic game theory.

So having political or social power makes you more likely to be a risk taker. You're more likely to risk something if you think you can earn it back quickly if you lose it. There's nothing innate or natural about it.
Which societies are more equal?
 

Lithose

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Did not say 'naturally.' Economists have done this study. Women are less risk averse in more equal societies, and in the handful of matriarchal tribes studied, the women are actually greater risk takers than the men when tested with economic game theory.

So having political or social power makes you more likely to be a risk taker. You're more likely to risk something if you think you can earn it back quickly if you lose it.
I can't comment about risk aversion for women, I didn't read the full study on it, I'll take your word for it. Was it from the London School of Economics? I think I remember the C from CEP (Center for Economic Performance.) I've only skimmed a review of the study, I wanted to go back and read it but never had time. I'm not sure if it was an exhaustive study of fields; but it was focused on risk taking and competition aspects of the pay gap.