Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

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Famm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
11,041
794
The problem is that these girls think they're something special, rather than easily interchangeable.
Its this male behavior we are describing which enables that though. We try to say guys should treat women like they are easily replaceable so they don't get used and walked all over, and suddenly we are bitter misogynistic date rapists who think they are owed sex. Why should we be telling each other as men to accept a raw and one-sided deal when they could be looking for a real relationship that isn't like that?

And I'm not attacking you per se, but this is the way modern feminism comes across to men today. We are expected to suffer any and every whim of women and place them above our own self interest....why? Out of guilt for some chauvinistic society that hasn't existed since our grandparent's generation or even longer?
 

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,581
12,534
Women are interchangeable until you meet the "one" for you. I don't buy into one person made for each, but I fully understand that the girl I'm seeing now has a much different dynamic with me. She is not interchangeable to me and I'd wager most happily married or coupled men would say the same. I've still got a bit of a romantic in me though. As long as she's special to you, who cares? Unless you're dating a used up whore or slut, then I'm sorry dude.

Oh and I'm well aware of the hypocrisy of the above, but that's evolution of the male mind. We want that good girl who acts like a dirty slut for you alone and was never touched by another. Unfair, unlikely, and totally a societal and, I think, biological construct.
 

Tanoomba

ジョーディーすれいやー
<Banned>
10,170
1,439
Explain to us then. I sure as hell was never told I was owed sex and apparently I'm not alone who missed the memo.
Yes you were, in every form of media that glamorizes and glorifies the pursuit of and carrying out of sex. The media is part of our culture. It not only reflects our thoughts but actively shapes how we think. Everything from the "nerd who wins over the heart of the reluctant hottie through perseverance" trope to the constant emphasis on the sex lives of protagonists tells us that if we're not getting laid, we're doing it wrong.

"That's the media! I can tell fiction from reality, thank you very much."
Sure, fine. Doesn't mean it's not affecting how you think, whether or not you realize it. Also, some people clearly take messages like that to heart, like our friends Elliot Rodger and Trollface. Dismissing them as "exceptions" instead of acknowledging how and why they got fucked up is ignorant and counterproductive.

"So I guess all the violence in the media is training us to be killers, right?"
It is immature and unfair to compare taking somebody's life to needing to get laid in order to feel valid. On the other hand, considering how many innocent people the US government can kill without Americans batting an eye, it's entirely possible that yes, you are being trained to accept killing as natural and inevitable. However, this is not what we're talking about, and I'd appreciate if you stayed on topic.

"Unrelated point based on misinterpretation of what was read!"
Yes, well, here we go again, then.

Once you're done with that, go ahead and tell us what this so called patriarchy entails, we're on page 106 and you still havn't figured out how to answer that question yet, apparently you have no idea what it is either.
Patriarchy entails a society where the rules are primarily decided by men. Since the vast majority of both wealth and positions of power are held by men, this would make our society a patriarchy.

I've got the feeling you're just going to throw your arms in the air for the umpteenth time, say this is all just so obvious, roll your eyes and change the subject because you have no idea how to word logically your gut feeling.
Actually, I've been exceptionally patient. I've explained and re-explained things, even when faced with the repeated and intentional bastardization of my points. And when I do get through by wording something in a way you guys can't play word-twisting games with, I'm promptly ignored and the subject is changed. But, like usual, I'm talking to a wall here. You guys just read what you want to read, not what is written. It's working pretty well for you so far, in that you never have to acknowledge when somebody makes a valid point you are uncomfortable with, but it sure as hell isn't winning you any points as reasonable debaters.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
29,014
79,739
Successful courtship in the face of adversity, a trope that is not gender directional, does not equal "owe." The shaming virgins in media or society also does not equal "owe." The narrative is not that women "owe" them but that if they are unable to obtain female affections they are of low value. Men are taught to internalize blame their entire lives. Your situation isyourfault. No one "owes" you a fucking thing.
 

Lejina

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
<Bronze Donator>
4,674
12,188
Exactly, as men we're taught that if we want anything we have to work for it to earn it, nothing is owed to us. Not only that, but our classical gender role (which still endure by the fact women rarely marry down) is that we're expected to be providers for our family, we're the one doing the giving, we don't get a free ride.


However, this is not what we're talking about, and I'd appreciate if you stayed on topic.
What the fuck, did you just scold yourself while having a made up argument with yourself?
You may be genuinely insane. No wonder it goes nowhere debating with you.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
29,014
79,739
Ah, so I see you are going to play the Elliot Rodger card.

Elliot Rodger was a psychopath that frequented forums associated with the PUA community. He was not an activist for men's rights and he is not representative of MRAs. If Jesus came down to Earth and offered each man in America an opportunity to be sent back in time and crush Elliot Rodger's head in with a pipe wrench before he started slashing up men he didn't like almost everyone would happy bash his brains out with the Christ's blessed spanner. MRAs don't go kill a bunch of other men they regard as being less than human. Or women.

It's a shame that we don't have Ed Gein's or Jeffrey Dahmer's internet history available to us to paint others with, isn't it?
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,202
23,394
Its this male behavior we are describing which enables that though. We try to say guys should treat women like they are easily replaceable so they don't get used and walked all over, and suddenly we are bitter misogynistic date rapists who think they are owed sex. Why should we be telling each other as men to accept a raw and one-sided deal when they could be looking for a real relationship that isn't like that?

And I'm not attacking you per se, but this is the way modern feminism comes across to men today. We are expected to suffer any and every whim of women and place them above our own self interest....why? Out of guilt for some chauvinistic society that hasn't existed since our grandparent's generation or even longer?
I dunno why you're arguing with me, since I wasn't disagreeing.

The whole conflict comes from a fundamental difference in how men and women view the word "friend" and how they view sex.

Women will call the cashier at the shoe store they go to twice a month their "friend" where men generally reserve the word "friend" for "someone I would consider taking a bullet for under the right circumstances."

On the flip side of the coin, most men will have sex with basically any girl that isn't completely disgusting (and even a few who are.) Even girls they would never want to be seen in public with. Women have... just... generally hard to classify ideas about sex. There's very few good generalizations one can make about how women view sex besides making it way more complicated than men can handle.

PS: Using Elliot Rodger as an 'example' of anything other than someone who needed to be put in a mental hospital for the rest of his life means you already lost the argument.
 

Famm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
11,041
794
On the flip side of the coin, most men will have sex with basically any girl that isn't completely disgusting. Even girls they would never want to be seen in public with. Women have... just... generally hard to classify ideas about sex. There's very few good generalizations one can make about how women view sex besides making it way more complicated than men can handle.
The difference you're describing is very simple to qualify, I've probably already posted this before in the thread even:

 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,202
23,394
I do want to add that while I think the "friendzone" is a fair characterization of what women do to men, I do think that men don't see the woman's side of the whole "friendzone" thing. A lot of women put guys in the "friendzone" not because they want to manipulate men; a lot of the time it's because they WOULD have sex with the guy, but they want to 'spare' him from the 'insanity' that will ensue from all the 'issues' that arise afterwards. They're completely unaware that those issues are totally in their own head and that men don't put the kind of weight and complexity on sex that they do.
 

Famm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
11,041
794
A lot of women put guys in the "friendzone" not because they want to manipulate men; a lot of the time it's because they WOULD have sex with the guy, but they want to 'spare' him from the 'insanity' that will ensue from all the 'issues' that arise afterwards.
Oh please, "spare" me the convoluted attempt at rationalization of this response. If a woman is into you, you will know it, and she will show it. Even if she's resolute about not putting out on the first date, or in the first month even, you either inspire that passionate response or you don't. Women have girlfriends, and a boyfriend. If you aren't fucking her, you're one of her girlfriends.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
29,014
79,739
It's also useful to have a cadre of potential suitors that are all willing to do things for you, help you with things, listen to your ramblings, and give you stuff. It is entirely rational to not squelch those kinds of "friendships."
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
26,236
39,957
I do want to add that while I think the "friendzone" is a fair characterization of what women do to men, I do think that men don't see the woman's side of the whole "friendzone" thing. A lot of women put guys in the "friendzone" not because they want to manipulate men; a lot of the time it's because they WOULD have sex with the guy, but they want to 'spare' him from the 'insanity' that will ensue from all the 'issues' that arise afterwards. They're completely unaware that those issues are totally in their own head and that men don't put the kind of weight and complexity on sex that they do.
Women dont put men in the friend zone, men put themselves there. If you're waiting for something to develop, you're already fucked.
 

Tanoomba

ジョーディーすれいやー
<Banned>
10,170
1,439
Elliot Rodger was a psychopath that frequented forums associated with the PUA community. He was not an activist for men's rights and he is not representative of MRAs.
Dismissing them as "exceptions" instead of acknowledging how and why they got fucked up is ignorant and counterproductive.
Also, why did he subscribe to several MRA channels? Because he hated MRAs and wanted to find material to hate? Because he was indifferent to them and considered it worth his time and energy watching videos that held no interest to him? Or maybe, just maybe, he agreed with what they stood for. Maybe, just like our virgin friend, he found a group he felt like he belonged to, a group of people who didn't care abut his insecurities and allowed him to be part of a victim club who blames their problems on women.

Does that make him "representative" of MRAs? Of course not, but it goes a long way to show the kind of people they attract, and the kind of attitudes they at worst encourage and at best allow to develop.

Elliot Rodger felt he was being denied a basic human right. He wasn't getting what he wanted from women, and he found comfort in a group of people who villainized and blamed women. That doesn't mean every MRA is about to go on a shooting spree, but we can't just assume the culture and messages Rodger was exposed to didn't play a role in shaping who he became, especially not to defend a group that has both less reason to exist than feminists and is more hateful.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
26,236
39,957
Elliot Rodger felt he was being denied a basic human right. He wasn't getting what he wanted from women, and he found comfort in a group of people who villainized and blamed women. That doesn't mean every MRA is about to go on a shooting spree, but we can't just assume the culture and messages Rodger was exposed to didn't play a role in shaping who he became, especially not to defend a group that has both less reason to exist than feminists and is more hateful.
Eliot and those of his mindset believed that everyone ought to be playing by the set of rules he was conditioned to believe everyone else was playing by and he dutifully subscribed to. They want a prescription, not a painful, ego destroying description.

That hate wasn't about women or misogyny, or Alpha jocks getting after it with the girls he wanted, or even PUAs selling him a new set of rules he couldn't stomach; his hate was about his inability to reconcile his ego with the ugly realities that a brief exposure to red pill truths revealed to him.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
29,014
79,739
A lot of women put guys in the "friendzone" not because they want to manipulate men; a lot of the time it's because they WOULD have sex with the guy, but they want to 'spare' him from the 'insanity' that will ensue from all the 'issues' that arise afterwards. They're completely unaware that those issues are totally in their own head and that men don't put the kind of weight and complexity on sex that they do.
It's posts like these that make me really glad Mist is continuing to post despite all the guff she gets. These are insights you don't typically get for free.

"Oh, Iwouldtotally fuck him (despite not being attracted to him) but I'm just going through so much lately it wouldn't be fair to him. But I'll still totally let him buy me shit and take me places."

his hate was about his inability to reconcile his ego with the ugly realities that a brief exposure to red pill truths revealed to him.
I'm guessing it went something like "it's your own fucking fault you creepy fuck. If you can't get chicks with a porshe and a director daddy you must be a construct of female repellant given flesh."