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Tanoomba

Tanoomba

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khalid_sl said:
Yep, the laws against underage drinking seem to have led to an increase in the actual problem, which is overindulgence.
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What makes you so sure that there has been an increase in overindulgence? Why are you convinced this is due to underage drinking laws?

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm curious where you're getting this info from.
 
Araysar

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I dont see any kind of drinking as a problem and I dont believe in manufactured terminology like " excessive drinking", its just a scam for people to make money off drinkers by insisting they have a problem.
 
khalid

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Tanoomba_sl said:
What makes you so sure that there has been an increase in overindulgence? Why are you convinced this is due to underage drinking laws?

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm curious where you're getting this info from.
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To our culture, drinking is associated with being an adult and being able to drink a lot is associated with being tough. So what do you think is going to happen when 18 year olds start mixing freely at parties with people 21+, for the first time being completely free from any sort of supervision? They are going to drink, because they don't want to be seen as the kids, and since they probably haven't done much drinking before, they are much more likely to overindulge.

If we could somehow unlink this association with drinking being an adult thing or an adult right of passage, we would do far more to stop excessive drinking than silly shit like expelling people from campus because they drank a few beers at a party. Unfortunately, the underage drinking laws help enforce this association.


Now to Araysar's point, is excessive drinking a problem? Of course, outside of someone being from Russia, I think pretty much everyone can see this. Getting blackout drunk every night is certainly going to be bad for your health and will also put you in many compromising situations. At that point, you have lost all self-control and reason, so are likely to also be a danger to the people around you also.
 
fanaskin

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the point would be, being a drunkard shouldn't be looked at as "being cool" you should look like your a fool even to teenage peers, it's basically shitty culture that teenagers think it's cool to get wasted in a binge/purge type way.
 
Mist

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Araysar_sl said:
I dont see any kind of drinking as a problem and I dont believe in manufactured terminology like " excessive drinking", its just a scam for people to make money off drinkers by insisting they have a problem.
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lol what.
 
Tanoomba

Tanoomba

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khalid_sl said:
To our culture, drinking is associated with being an adult and being able to drink a lot is associated with being tough. So what do you think is going to happen when 18 year olds start mixing freely at parties with people 21+, for the first time being completely free from any sort of supervision? They are going to drink, because they don't want to be seen as the kids, and since they probably haven't done much drinking before, they are much more likely to overindulge.
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Well, that would be stupid thing for 18 year olds to do. Why shouldn't they be responsible for the consequences of their stupid decisions? Sounds like you're saying "teens will be teens" and need us to protect them from their stupidity. I'd prefer they learn to start acting responsibly as soon as possible, and that includes not overindulging on alcohol to impress 21 year olds.

khalid_sl said:
If we could somehow unlink this association with drinking being an adult thing or an adult right of passage, we would do far more to stop excessive drinking than silly shit like expelling people from campus because they drank a few beers at a party. Unfortunately, the underage drinking laws help enforce this association.
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What about the law that says it's illegal to have sex with minors? Does that reinforce sex being an adult thing and lead to overindulgence of sex in the years leading to the age of consent? Should we be making efforts to "somehow unlink" this association with sex being an adult thing?

The younger people are, the less developed (both physically and mentally) they are. There are some things people simply shouldn't do until a certain age. Of course, that age can vary wildly from person to person, but since it's impossible to accurately measure each individual's "readiness" for drinking and fucking, we make a generalization and come up with an age of consent and a legal drinking age. We do this because without these restrictions we'd have to deal with the messy, messy consequences of millions of people drinking and fucking long before they're ready, not because we're trying to create a "no kids allowed" club for cool people and make the young'uns jealous. If you've got a better system, I'm all ears.
 
Arbitrary

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Yes, that's how laws are made. It's a careful and rational process designed to address a problem and not at all subjective or random or hitched to whatever the direction the wind happened to blowing on a particular day.
 
Mist

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College kids are drinking WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than any adults and their brains are way less capable of handling it. They're also not able to socially handle the inevitable repercussions of that much drinking.
 
khalid

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Tanoomba_sl said:
What about the law that says it's illegal to have sex with minors? Does that reinforce sex being an adult thing and lead to overindulgence of sex in the years leading to the age of consent? Should we be making efforts to "somehow unlink" this association with sex being an adult thing?
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Lots of problems with this analogy. For one, sex with minors is drastically different than underage drinking. Certainly I am against statutory rape laws used to prosecute teen on teen sex.
 
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Mist_sl said:
College kids are drinking WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than any adults and their brains are way less capable of handling it. They're also not able to socially handle the inevitable repercussions of that much drinking.
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Hell most adults aren't able to handle drinking either. Have you seen how fucking dumb most people act when drinking?

But we generally don't need to control the behavior of others. You do you, let me do me. You don't get to socially plan what behaviors are good and bad, aside from laws against harming others (which is why drunk driving is illegal, etc).
 
khalid

khalid

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Well, that would be stupid thing for 18 year olds to do. Why shouldn't they be responsible for the consequences of their stupid decisions? Sounds like you're saying "teens will be teens" and need us to protect them from their stupidity. I'd prefer they learn to start acting responsibly as soon as possible, and that includes not overindulging on alcohol to impress 21 year olds.
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Sorry about responding to you twice here, but in the middle of a bunch of shit.

You say you prefer that they learn to act responsibly. Sure, so would I. I just don't want that "lesson" to be something as drastic as being expelled from school, or anything close to it. I would much rather try and do what we can to get away from the culture that makes it cool or likely that people will binge drink in college. Rather than increasing penalties, lets increase education pointing out how stupid you are to be shitfaced drunk (as fanaskin pointed out) and get rid of arbitrary age limits like 21 to drink even though you can be in the military at 18.
 
Mist

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khalid_sl said:
I just don't want that "lesson" to be something as drastic as being expelled from school, or anything close to it.
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I don't want that lesson to be getting raped.

EDIT: I don't want that lesson to be being accused of rape either. If there was less drinking going on campuses, there would be less rapes AND less false/questionable rape accusations flying around.
 
Araysar

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Mist is jealous that all chicks on campus except her are getting laid
 
Tanoomba

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khalid_sl said:
I would much rather try and do what we can to get away from the culture that makes it cool or likely that people will binge drink in college. Rather than increasing penalties, lets increase education pointing out how stupid you are to be shitfaced drunk (as fanaskin pointed out) and get rid of arbitrary age limits like 21 to drink even though you can be in the military at 18.
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Dude, OF COURSE it would be better for everyone if we could just "educate" people on the dangers of drinking, just like it would be awesome if we could "educate" people out of being racist, sexist, homophobic, religious, greedy, etc. How can we do that? PSAs? Fun cartoon music videos? Facebook campaigns? Government programs? We've been trying to "educate" people,especiallykids, on things like drug and alcohol abuse for decades. If that worked we wouldn't need a legal drinking age. Unfortunately, drinking alcohol is a lot of fun and people generally want to try it as soon as they figure that out. If it weren't for the legal drinking age, we'd almost certainly have more drunk driving, more alcohol poisoning, more rape, more violence, and more stupid decisions, the consequences of which affect us all. Is the legal drinking age a perfect solution? Obviously not, but we still don't have anything better. When we come up with it, I'll be all for it.

Now, I don't want to shit on you for being idealistic, mostly because I am quite the idealist myself. But saying "it would be better if we could do thingsthisway" doesn't mean anything if there's no real world application. Go Venus Project!
 
khalid

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Except, I'm not simply saying "wouldn't it be awesome IF!". I am saying we can do this right now by uncoupling the obvious absurdity of disallowing drinking at 18 but allowing people to join the military then. Having a drinking age of 21 is obviously absurd in that context, 18 year olds aren't living with their parents, some are married, many are serving in the military. The current approach of making it illegal at 18 isn't working and pretty much directly encourages binge drinking. If the drug war has taught us anything, it is that by making it illegal, we simply glamorize it and make it more likely that people will abuse it or use it in unsafe settings.

So no, I disagree that lowering the drinking age would be bad for society or that it would lead to even more binge drinking, rape and problems.
 
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It might even be safer to have kids drinking in clubs rather than at house parties which they are forced into by the alcohol laws. There is typically no supervision whatsoever at the house parties whereas clubs have bouncers/bartenders/etc.
 
Mist

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I think the drinking age should be lowered, but I still think that campuses need to step up policing binge drinking, public drunkenness, and put harsher penalties on incidents that result from drunkenness.
 
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