Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Palum

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You don't understand what science or cherrypicking is. People accused *me* of cherrypicking but that's actually what they were doing to MY data. I brought more than my fair share of data to my arguments, considering how many people were attacking them by cherrypicking tiny bits of them and how little data they brought of their own.
You aren't actually refuting any of the studies in the documentary which invalidate your hypothesis, just the fact that it was filmed by a comedian. You're reacting theexactway all the sociologists acted in that film when confronted with experiments and data instead of theories. That was an heroic act.
 

Mist

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God damn. This was all clearly explained. By scientists who ran the tests and observations. They were actually speaking in english too, so you didn't even have to read subtitles.
Yes, it was clearly explained that genders have certain preferences, but not where those preferences come from. They all come from modelling behaviors, which is a better and simpler explanation than the scientists in the video.

Just because those two scientists supported the video creator's biases, doesn't mean those are the only scientific viewpoints that exist on the subject, or that they're even the majority view. It's no different from someone going around and making an anti-climate change video by going and finding the handful of scientists that agree with them.

What we ACTUALLY do know is that there's no biological/neurological basis that boys and girls are born with significantly different mathematical or empathy-related structures in the brain. We can actually prove this isn't true. And what tiny variations we do find between the genders among large samples are dwarfed by the delta between *individuals* within the samples.

So even if you could prove that boys are let's say 3% better at math than girls (no evidence of this, girls get better grades than boys even in math,) the difference between any one random girl and one random boy would be render that 3% meaningless.
 

Mist

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You aren't actually refuting any of the studies in the documentary which invalidate your hypothesis, just the fact that it was filmed by a comedian. You're reacting theexactway all the sociologists acted in that film when confronted with experiments and data instead of theories. That was an heroic act.
I actually did refute it by presenting a simpler hypothesis that explains their results better than their own. They claimed it was biological because it was across cultures, but showed no actual evidence of biological forces which produced said results, results that could easily be explained by an extremely simple behavioral psychology theory: modelling. THAT is the opposite of scientific.
 

Palum

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Just because those two scientists supported the video creator's biases, doesn't mean those are the only scientific viewpoints that exist on the subject, or that they're even the majority view. It's no different from someone going around and making an anti-climate change video by going and finding the handful of scientists that agree with them.
The dude is a sociologist and several times in the documentary he is stating that everything the scientists are telling him goes against everything he's been taught. Yet he continues to pursue questioning their results and premises until he has enough to form a conclusion.

It's almost as if... he's acting like a ... scientist????

Also, again nice shifting goal posts by trying to claim that minor differences in proficiency would even have anything to do with preference and choice.
 

Palum

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I actually did refute it by presenting a simpler hypothesis that explains their results better than their own.
Uhhh, no? Who the fuck has a 'mentor', lol? How do children showing preferences for certain type of interaction or activities have anything to do with 'mentorship'? If that were the case how do any children go after 'male' careers if the overwhelming majority of elementary school teachers (ie mentors in the so-called 'formative' years) are female? I think instead you are drawing a farcical conclusion based upon your need to quickly disprove anything that suggests your social 'sciences' are anything more than a hack when they step outside of reporting societal and cultural trends and into the realm of hard science.
 

Mist

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Also, again nice shifting goal posts by trying to claim that minor differences in proficiency would even have anything to do with preference and choice.
You fucking suck at reading comprehension because that's the opposite of what I said. What I said that even if you did find minor differences in proficiency it would be irrelevant when compared to the variation between individuals.
 

Mist

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Uhhh, no? Who the fuck has a 'mentor', lol? How do children showing preferences for certain type of interaction or activities have anything to do with 'mentorship'? If that were the case how do any children go after 'male' careers if the overwhelming majority of elementary school teachers (ie mentors in the so-called 'formative' years) are female? I think instead you are drawing a farcical conclusion based upon your need to quickly disprove anything that suggests your social 'sciences' are anything more than a hack when they step outside of reporting societal and cultural trends and into the realm of hard science.
Neither of the American or British scientists they talked were any more 'hard' science than the others. They were psychologists and sociologists too. They just happened to agree with your uninformed point of view.

Regardless, your first point actually supports my hypothesis. Because there's fewer male teachers, boys do worse in school, pursue higher education less, and end up doing more physical labor jobs on average as a result.

The whole problem with your hypothesis here, is that even if you're right, you lose anyway, because it's pretty damning for men. Their data shows men have less language skills and less empathy, two pretty important things in a post-industrial, soon to be post-post-industrial society. Honestly, for men's sake, you better hope you're wrong.

Yeah, sure, some men will be fine, the 15% or so who have high IQs combined with high mechanical/spatial/algorithmic cognitive abilities, but for the rest of male-kind, what're they going to be good for? Meanwhile women will always be teachers and caregivers, something there never runs out of demand for.
 

khalid

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Neither of the American or British scientists they talked were any more 'hard' science than the others. They were psychologists and sociologists too. They just happened to agree with your uninformed point of view.

Regardless, your first point actually supports my hypothesis. Because there's fewer male teachers, boys do worse in school, pursue higher education less, and end up doing more physical labor jobs on average as a result.
Except their hypotheses were tested with studies and experiments. Yours is just made up by you to fit your existing bullshit theory. Again, if you watched it, you would see they did studies on children too young for any mentor relationship to matter.
 

Mist

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Except their hypotheses were tested with studies and experiments. Yours is just made up by you to fit your existing bullshit theory. Again, if you watched it, you would see they did studies on children too young for any mentor relationship to matter.
They didn't bother to show how any of their data on how much the babies differed in their facial/mechanical interests. I'm guessing their R values weren't very high. Those are the exact kinds of studies where people fudge statistics until they get something that looks meaningful or passes a certain significance test. It happens CONSTANTLY in studies like that. The fact that you're taking it as a fact because it supports your point of view, without actually looking at their data, is a fucking joke.

Scientific method: Statistical errors : Nature News Comment

Go read this article on P-hacking as a primer, and then go find their data, and then we can talk about science.
 

Sebudai

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Presented with studies offering alternative explanations. Immediately attacks the studies and scientists who conducted them. Criticizes people for thinking these studies might have some merit before they've examined the data. Condemns the studies before she has examined the data.

Personally I never took their findings as a fact. I just noted the reaction of the Norwegians. You're reacting the exact same way.
 

khalid

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The fact that you're taking it as a fact because it supports your point of view, without actually looking at their data, is a fucking joke.
The fact you completely dismiss a study because it conflicts with your self-hypothesis is the absurdity. It is amazing how you react exactly like the sociologists from Norway. Presented with evidence, rather than cite their own studies or mention them at all, they go "cause feelings". Your feelings and anecdotal information have fuckall to do with anything. The study may be wrong, but without any scientific information going the other way, I'll go with it.

Also, please, continue to educate me on mathematics. I need a good laugh. "I'm guessing their R values weren't very high", yeah, I'll listen to your lectures on mathematics as soon as I'm done having Merlin educate me on subtraction.
 

Sebudai

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Yes, it was clearly explained that genders have certain preferences, but not where those preferences come from.
One of the potential explanations given was hormonal differences (particularly testosterone). They even included some supporting evidence for it.

As Anne Campbell sort of references in the film, it's remarkable that people can accept that the evolutionary process has endowed men and women with significantly different physical and hormonal characteristics, while at the same time being so certain that this same process has had zero impact on the human brain.
 

Agraza

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Awesome series. Watched 2 of them. Flows like Penn and Teller's Bullshit, but with more sincerity. Hard to argue with the testosterone link.

If Mist watched that and she's still not checking her academia privilege, she's just completely irrational.
 

Cad

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Mist I know you don't have kids so I'll just ask - have you ever been around kids? Its pretty obvious that boys and girls just innately enjoy doing different things even as toddlers. They don't even have a particular gender identity at 1 year old, and the boys walk sooner, hit things with other toys as a basic instinct, are more territorial and aggressive, etc than girls. Girls talk and read sooner, are more content to be docile and sit in one area, etc - you can see this at the earliest ages. There are obvious exceptions but boys and girls are just different, and its not modeling or mentoring.
 

Palum

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Mist I know you don't have kids so I'll just ask - have you ever been around kids? Its pretty obvious that boys and girls just innately enjoy doing different things even as toddlers. They don't even have a particular gender identity at 1 year old, and the boys walk sooner, hit things with other toys as a basic instinct, are more territorial and aggressive, etc than girls. Girls talk and read sooner, are more content to be docile and sit in one area, etc - you can see this at the earliest ages. There are obvious exceptions but boys and girls are just different, and its not modeling or mentoring.
Where's your studies? Bet the R values aren't very high so I think we can safely ignore your basic observation over Mist's conjecture to fit her desired fact pattern.
 

Mist

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Awesome series. Watched 2 of them. Flows like Penn and Teller's Bullshit, but with more sincerity. Hard to argue with the testosterone link.

If Mist watched that and she's still not checking her academia privilege, she's just completely irrational.
It's NOT hard to argue with the 'testosterone link' at all. Sure, there's some small correlations, but it's not anywhere near a large enough correlation to explain the massive gender differences in occupations. The only way to explain that is to bring sociological forces into it. Further, hormones are themselves influenced by sociological forces all the time.

Also what the fuck 'academia privilege?' The video put one group of academics against another group of academics. None of them on either side were neuroscientists or neurobiologists, the kind of hard science that would actually talk about biological differences in the brain with authority. You're just siding with one group of soft scientists as a matter of faith without seeing their methods or data, because you happen to agree with their conclusions. That's not science and that's not academic.

And you're right, it's EXACTLY like Bullshit. They picked a hypothesis then went out in search of only the data that would support that hypothesis. That's exactly what they did on Bullshit, and that's why Bullshit was itself Bullshit. I've seen every single episode of Bullshit and thought it was a hugely entertaining show, but Penn contends to be a rationalist but throws the entirety of the scientific method out of the window. Theonlyway the scientific method works is if you choose a hypothesis then do everything in your power to search out the data that DISPROVES your hypothesis, and only if you can't find any can you say that your hypothesis has any merit.
 

Mist

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Mist I know you don't have kids so I'll just ask - have you ever been around kids? Its pretty obvious that boys and girls just innately enjoy doing different things even as toddlers. They don't even have a particular gender identity at 1 year old, and the boys walk sooner, hit things with other toys as a basic instinct, are more territorial and aggressive, etc than girls. Girls talk and read sooner, are more content to be docile and sit in one area, etc - you can see this at the earliest ages. There are obvious exceptions but boys and girls are just different, and its not modeling or mentoring.
I'm an educational psychologist and a statistician. Yes I've spent plenty of time with kids (more than I'd like) and run the full gamut of developmental psych courses. I'm a research psychologist and not a clinical one so I do spend most of my time with statistics and not people though.

No one's saying there aren't any biological differences, but here's my three big problems with their conclusions:

Those biological differences, which are small, are insignificant compared to the actual occupational gap, which is massive.
Those small differences between the genders are insignificant compared to the massive deltas between individuals within a population, rendering them fairly irrelevant.
The differences in outcomes with regards to career choice are better explained by sociological forces, which are massive in comparison to the biological differences. And the hormonal differences are part biological and part sociological.

And you're wrong about boys walking sooner than girls. That's a myth not supported by data. Girls do talk sooner, but that also can be explained better by modelling and other exterior forces than by biology.

Where are your studies indeed.
 

Sebudai

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The occupational gap is widening in Norway, despite it being the most egalitarian country with regards to the sexes.