Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Mist

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So a mechanism already exists for expressing different traits in the sexes, but you'd like to assign something different just because our brains are more complexly evolved? Ok
Notjust because.Because we've peered into the brain and not seen any evidence of significant structural differences. The science has been done. Yes, there are some differences, but they're not significant compared to external forces, and most of those differences are the result of hormones levels during brain development from birth to adulthood which are to a large extent also influenced by external forces.
 

Mist

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And since you keep going on about how similar the male and female brains are, maybe peel back the curtain to this meta analysis

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/m...ain-structures
Those are adult brains. Not brains at birth. Brains are highly plastic and are shaped during their development all the way into ones early 20s, and still a little bit beyond that. Those changes are shaped by both hormones and how wechooseto use our brains, and those choices are socially influenced. A boy who chooses to use his language areas as much as a girl is going to have the same amount of development in the language centers when he reaches adulthood as the girl does. The ways we use our brains are influenced by all sorts of modelling behaviors.
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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Notjust because.Because we've peered into the brain and not seen any evidence of significant structural differences. The science has been done. Yes, there are some differences, but they're not significant compared to external forces, and most of those differences are the result of hormones levels during brain development from birth to adulthood which are to a large extent also influenced by external forces.
I just posted a link for you to read. There are vast differences.
"they're not significant compared to external forces" doesn't mean anything. It's a phrase you've plucked out of the air and expected us to take at face value.

Also, there's more than a fair chunk of evidence to suggest that our ancestors tens of thousands of years ago also displayed gender roles. Society as we know it was hardly a twinkle in a cave man's eye, yet the same gender roles played out all across the planet in unconnected populations. Still society's fault?
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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Those are adult brains. Not brains at birth. Brains are highly plastic and are shaped during their development all the way into ones early 20s, and still a little bit beyond that. Those changes are shaped by both hormones and how wechooseto use our brains, and those choices are socially influenced. A boy who chooses to use his language areas as much as a girl is going to have the same amount of development in the language centers when he reaches adulthood as the girl does. The ways we use our brains are influenced by all sorts of modelling behaviors.
First there were no significant differences, now there are, but it's society's fault. And it's nice to see you know more than the one's conducting the meta study

"Professor Baron-Cohen commented: "Although these very clear sex differences in brain structure may reflect an environmental or social factor, from other studies we know that biological influences are also important, including prenatal sex steroid hormones (such as foetal testosterone) as well as sex chromosome effects. Such influences need to be teased out, one by one." - See more at: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures#sthash.1UlbM6yj.dpuf"

I'll just use your posts for citations from here on in
 

Mist

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I just posted a link for you to read. There are vast differences.
"they're not significant compared to external forces" doesn't mean anything. It's a phrase you've plucked out of the air and expected us to take at face value.

Also, there's more than a fair chunk of evidence to suggest that our ancestors tens of thousands of years ago also displayed gender roles. Society as we know it was hardly a twinkle in a cave man's eye, yet the same gender roles played out all across the planet in unconnected populations. Still society's fault?
There's actually plenty of evidence that pre-civilization humans didn't have as rigid gender roles as we imagine them to have. Yes, biological necessity put the brunt of childcare on the women, and evolutionary forces put the bulk of the risk-taking behaviors on the men, as you could lose a whole lot of your men to wars and hunting accidents and the remainder would be more than happy to inseminate all of the women.
 

Arbitrary

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The vast majority of the brain is not sexually dimorphic, the only parts that are significantly so are the old, primitive parts relating specifically to sex. The most recently evolved portions of the brain, the ones that give us all of our fine motor skills and rational, cognitive abilities, are not sexually dimorphic at birth.
I just want to go back to this earlier statement at the start of the day where you plainly stated that there are significant differences in the older areas of the human brain between genders at birth and now you've said that there are some differences even at birth in the more recently evolved portions.

I don't get where your certainty comes from. You know there are differences to be found in the more primitive areas of the brain. You know there are differences in the more evolved areas of the brain. You know experience plays a role and you know that environment plays a role (which is not the same thing as experience even though you keep grouping them together). But nope, it's all overwhelmingly society. Most of what you are talking about sounds like you've confused "we have found no evidence of differences" with "we have found evidence of no differences." Those aren't the same things. Not even close.
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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There's actually plenty of evidence that pre-civilization humans didn't have as rigid gender roles as we imagine them to have. Yes, biological necessity put the brunt of childcare on the women, and evolutionary forces put the bulk of the risk-taking behaviors on the men, as you could lose a whole lot of your men to wars and hunting accidents and the remainder would be more than happy to inseminate all of the women.
Biological necessity breeds biological differences. You can go back (well, across) to chimpanzees and see the same gender roles which would point to our common ancestors also displaying ingrained gender differences. You can't just say "well, cave men and women HAD to conform out of necessity" when it's been that way for millennia. Just because we're able to contemplate our differences doesn't mean that they're suddenly a modern construct
 

Mist

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and now you've said that there are some differences even at birth in the more recently evolved portions.
No, I didnotsay that, and you will not find scientific evidence to support that. If I said anything that sounds like, which I don't think I did, it's because it's 3am and I'm trying to attack people with many many goblins right now in between posts.
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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There's actually plenty of evidence that pre-civilization humans didn't have as rigid gender roles as we imagine them to have.
I'd actually be curious to see something cited for this. Not just for the conversation at hand, but out of genuine curiosity
 

Mist

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Most of what you are talking about sounds like you've confused "we have found no evidence of differences" with "we have found evidence of no differences." Those aren't the same things. Not even close.
"We have found no evidence of differences" doesn't support your end of the argument any better. That's my point. Your end of the argument is more conjecture and less scientifically based than my end of the argument.

Again, you're over 100 years late to the party on this.
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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No, I didnotsay that, and you will not find scientific evidence to support that. If I said anything that sounds like, which I don't think I did, it's because it's 3am and I'm trying to attack people with many many goblins right now in between posts.
Nor will you find scientific evidence to support the contrary. All we have right now is scientific evidence to support the fact there are differences in adults over 18... but that doesn't mean you get to claim 0-17
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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Mist, if your hypothesis is true, and since hundreds of different societies evolved independently all over the planet, we should today have some societies where the gender roles are largely reversed (or at the very least, evidence of dead societies where this occurred). We don't
 

Mist

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Have you considered Mist's position that no, no they do not? That the only trait passed on is that boys copy men and girls copy women?
It's not the ONLY trait that's passed on, but it is by far the dominant one that is passed on. 80 years of behavioral psychology has shown that modeling behaviors and other learned behaviors get more and more dominant the more evolved the animal gets.

Let me put it this way. Science has shown that human beings have lost almost all of their instincts. Once we developed language, our instincts started going extinct pretty rapidly, because the we developed a better system for passing on behaviors than instinct, and our behaviors got so complex that they couldn't be passed on via instinct. Besides breathing, shitting and fucking, very few of our instincts are left. And by FAR the strongest instinct we have left is our strong innate desire to acquire new learned behaviors as rapidly as possible during childhood.

You're trying to make the case that extremely complex behaviors are being passed on by instinct, and that just doesn't make ANY fucking sense from a scientific standpoint.
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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It's not the ONLY trait that's passed on, but it is by far the dominant one that is passed on. 80 years of behavioral psychology has shown that modeling behaviors and other learned behaviors get more and more dominant the more evolved the animal gets.

Let me put it this way. Science has shown that human beings have lost almost all of their instincts. Once we developed language, our instincts started going extinct pretty rapidly, because the we developed a better system for passing on behaviors than instinct, and our behaviors got so complex that they couldn't be passed on via instinct. Besides breathing, shitting and fucking, very few of our instincts are left. And by FAR the strongest instinct we have left is our strong innate desire to acquire new learned behaviors as rapidly as possible during childhood.

You're trying to make the case that extremely complex behaviors are being passed on by instinct, and that just doesn't make ANY fucking sense from a scientific standpoint.
Yet you discount all the evidence of pretty much every other sexually reproducing creature on the planet and posit something new. It doesn't make sense.

If we behave a certain way and our primate cousins behave a similar way, it strongly suggests that our common ancestor, long before anything even remotely resembling civilization was close to existing, also behaved that way. It's innate. It's biological.
 

Arbitrary

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"We have found no evidence of differences" doesn't support your end of the argument any better. That's my point. Your end of the argument is more conjecture and less scientifically based than my end of the argument.

Again, you're over 100 years late to the party on this.
You don't really understand my point. There was a time when there wasn't anything special thought of breast milk. Scientists didn't find any evidence it had additional benefits. Not finding evidence of its benefits is different than finding evidence it has no benefits but the one was treated like the other when actually it isn't a particularly useful piece of information to have.

Your certainty baffles me. Do you truly have no fear that you are following the phrenology of the day? That you've saddled yourself to a set of ideas that already fit your worldview? Of course negros are criminals, look at the shapes of their skulls!
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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You're trying to make the case that extremely complex behaviors are being passed on by instinct, and that just doesn't make ANY fucking sense from a scientific standpoint.
And you're trying to make a case that, after 3.5 billion years of evolution (one billion or so of that being sexual reproduction), in the last 3 thousand years (10 thousand years? What is your timeline anyway?) , humans have suddenly become sexual blank slates. That makes even less fucking sense from a scientific standpoint