Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Palum · Jul 18, 2014

Two points:

1) Mist produces no citations (as usual), simply resorting to assertive phrasing and ad hominem to support her points. "Recent studies show, you fuckwit", "Illiterate hack, if only you'd seen the data I have", etc.
2) Did everyone miss the actual dialogue in the documentary? The Americanized English translation is notengineerbut actuallyconstruction worker. We're talking about hammer swingers vs. poop cleaners here, not electrical engineers and APRNs. The fuck does math skills have to do with anything.

Jive Turkey · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
You're trying to make the case that extremely complex behaviors are being passed on by instinct, and that just doesn't make ANY fucking sense from a scientific standpoint.

Wait... I just read this again and it blew my fucking mind... really? REALLY?

Mist · Jul 18, 2014

Jive Turkey_sl said:
Mist, if your hypothesis is true, and since hundreds of different societies evolved independently all over the planet, we should today have some societies where the gender roles are largely reversed (or at the very least, evidence of dead societies where this occurred). We don't

We don't see this evidence because these gender roles have proven to be beneficial and developed in parallel throughout most of the societies on the planet.

Again, you're painting my position as extreme when it's not. I think gender roles are positive characteristic of society, I just think that they're the result of the evolution of our social structures, not a result of actual biological evolution.

Gender roles are a good thing so long as societies offer enough freedom and opportunity to individuals that they can break free of those roles if they have the desire and the ability to excel in other roles. If a boy has the will and the capacity to be a great teacher, but his society tells him that boys shouldn't be teachers, then that society is losing a great teacher. I think our western societies do very well along this front and I don't think we need to take additional steps to equalize most professions by gender, so long as there is equal access and opportunities within those professions.

I think biological arguments are extremely flawed, because they're so broad that they don't take into account the extreme variations between individuals within a given classification. Fundamentally unsound biological arguments of various stripes also have a long history of being used by villains and tyrants to justify all sorts of racism, sexism, slavery, genocide, etc and they should just be discarded when we have way better ways to explain such behaviors.

Arbitrary · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
Science has shown that human beings have lost almost all of their instincts.

You know what, you've fucking lost your science privileges. You've been using the phrase "science has shown" like a priest talks about Jesus. "Jesus tells us that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle etc. etc. etc." I bet if I went back and took a drink every time you made a claim backed up with nothing other than "science says" I'd be in a coma right now.

Mist · Jul 18, 2014

Jive Turkey_sl said:
Wait... I just read this again and it blew my fucking mind... really? REALLY?

You seriously think that engineering aptitude is being passed on via the mechanism ofinstinct? Coding skills? Poetry?

Mist · Jul 18, 2014

I'm not quoting studies. I have better shit to do. You still haven't shown me the data behind the bullshit spouted by the dudes in the documentary, or checked their math for P-hacking (which you won't be able to do, because they won't have published the original data, only the dataset they used once all thosepesky outlierswere taken out.)

Jive Turkey · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
We don't see this evidence because these gender roles have proven to be beneficial and developed in parallel throughout most of the societies on the planet.

Again, you're painting my position as extreme when it's not. I think gender roles are positive characteristic of society, I just think that they're the result of the evolution of our social structures, not a result of actual biological evolution.

Gender roles are a good thing so long as societies offer enough freedom and opportunity to individuals that they can break free of those roles if they have the desire and the ability to excel in other roles. If a boy has the will and the capacity to be a great teacher, but his society tells him that boys shouldn't be teachers, then that society is losing a great teacher. I think our western societies do very well along this front and I don't think we need to take additional steps to equalize most professions by gender, so long as there is equal access and opportunities within those professions.

I think biological arguments are extremely flawed, because they're so broad that they don't take into account the extreme variations between individuals within a given classification. Fundamentally unsound biological arguments of various stripes also have a long history of being used by villains and tyrants to justify all sorts of racism, sexism, slavery, genocide, etc and they should just be discarded when we have way better ways to explain such behaviors.

Well I completely agree with you in regard to how we should treat gender roles. But I don't see how you can separate the beneficial nature of gender roles and how that is most likely biological in nature. After all, it's not like humans are the first creatures to display them. They most certainly did not develop in parallel throughout societies on the planet. That's my point. They've existed for long before we ever arrived on the scene. They developed completely independent of human society. Society was shaped by our nature

Arbitrary · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
I'm not quoting studies. I have better shit to do. You still haven't shown me the data behind the bullshit spouted by the dudes in the documentary, or checked their math for P-hacking (which you won't be able to do, because they won't have published the original data, only the dataset they used once all thosepesky outlierswere taken out.)

Oh don't give me that. You fucking never bother to track anything down on any topic. The one time the stars aligned you misread what you were citing and hid for a week.

Jive Turkey · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
You seriously think that engineering aptitude is being passed on via the mechanism ofinstinct? Coding skills? Poetry?

Do I think there is a gene specifically for engineering aptitude? Of course I don't. But the underlying, complex behaviour that allows us to do all these things is certainly built in. So is the incredibly complex behaviour of spiders. The incredibly complex behavior of honey bees. The incredibly complex behaviour of termites.... Complex behaviours are routinely passed on by instinct. As a matter of fact, it's not the exception, it's the rule

When exactly do you think humans magically departed from the natural world? (that's not snark.. I honestly don't know how else to put it).

And when do you think your societal pressure hypothesis kicked in? Do you think there was an intermediate species between us and the one we share with chimpanzees where gender roles were suddenly non existent?

(going to bed. I'll probably pick back up tomorrow or in another 100 years. Either way, you haven't addressed any of my points, really)

Mist · Jul 18, 2014

Jive Turkey_sl said:
Do I think there is a gene specifically for engineering aptitude? Of course I don't. But the underlying, complex behaviour that allows us to do all these things is certainly built in. So is the incredibly complex behaviour of spiders. The incredibly complex behavior of honey bees. The incredibly complex behaviour of termites.... Complex behaviours are routinely passed on by instinct. As a matter of fact, it's not the exception, it's the rule

When exactly do you think humans magically departed from the natural world? (that's not snark.. I honestly don't know how else to put it)

It's not happening. Complex human behaviors are not being passed on via instinct, because those behaviors developed long after our brains developed newer, better systems of passing on behaviors, aka language and learning. This is basic neuroscience.

Mist · Jul 18, 2014

Arbitrary_sl said:
Oh don't give me that. You fucking never bother to track anything down on any topic. The one time the stars aligned you misread what you were citing and hid for a week.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

But seriously, I'm not going to defend my assertions against 20+ mostly ignorant people who think building strawmen is the key to good arguing. I'm not submitting a doctoral thesis to be attacked via a committee of clowns on every single point I have to make, especially when everyone else is pulling shit completely out of their ass.

Jive Turkey · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
It's not happening. Complex human behaviors are not being passed on via instinct, because those behaviors developed long after our brains developed newer, better systems of passing on behaviors, aka language and learning. This is basic neuroscience.

Maybe have a thought about all the autonomous things you do every minute of your life.

(I added some stuff to the post you quoted. Bed time for real now)

Arbitrary · Jul 18, 2014

Why this of course. Took you five whole days to show back up again.

Mist_sl said:
Even if you go with ALL abuse then it's STILL not that close. Women are still 50%-100% more likely to be abused than men depending on exactly what you're measuring. In what world is that roughly equal?

Arbitrary_sl said:
I have to complement the ladies on doing a fine job on working towards equality. You can really see it in the 12 month estimates. I personally find this incredibly surge of violence towards men to be, quite frankly,arousing.Who hasn't wanted to slap the man in their life?

You've got a ways to go still but you'll get there.

Mist · Jul 18, 2014

I think that evolutionary forces in the natural world created lasting, self-reinforcing social structures that caused a mostly beneficial social separation of gender roles.

Mist · Jul 18, 2014

Arbitrary_sl said:
Why this of course. Took you five whole days to show back up again.

You think those overly broad categories are meaningful in any way? I mean, standing outside someone's window with a boombox and raping them are about the same thing...

Jive Turkey · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
I think that evolutionary forces in the natural world created lasting, self-reinforcing social structures that caused a mostly beneficial social separation of gender roles.

ugh, take longer to reply so I don't see it before closing my laptop

social structures that are evident in non-human societies. You seem to have this tendency to want to draw a line separating us from every other organism on Earth. We aren't that special. We can acknowledge our behaviors and contemplate them, but when they've existed for millennia and continue to exist in creatures all around us, your view reeks a bit of human arrogance.

Arbitrary · Jul 18, 2014

Mist's really just a good ol' Catholic girl at heart. We are different than the animals because God made us different.

Arbitrary · Jul 18, 2014

Mist_sl said:
You think those overly broad categories are meaningful in any way? I mean, standing outside someone's window with a boombox and raping them are about the same thing...

Those charts are from the study that you yourself cited as evidence but did not bother to read.

Big Phoenix · Jul 18, 2014

BBC News - Chelsea Manning to receive military

Pte Manning has been diagnosed by military doctors with gender dysphoria, the sense of one's gender being at odds withthe sex assigned at birth.

How the fuck are you "assigned" a sex at birth? For 99.9% of the population youre either male or female, there isnt any deciding what you are. Fuck this society, burn it all down. Sick and fucking tired of all these brain dead stupid worthless fucks in this world who wouldnt last five seconds if they had to think for themselves.

iannis · Jul 18, 2014

Very rarely babies are born with an innie an an outie. In those cases a gender does have to actually be decided and assigned. And that would be the proper way to define gender dysphoria. Gender, as a concept, is more than what's between your legs. Or it has grown to be.

Overall that's fine. Its even useful. But yeah, it's real easy to take that shit too far. There are types of people that will glom on.

If you told 500 people who don't eat grasshoppers that eating grasshoppers was a sign of a serious, but treatable, mental illness and that no one should be ashamed to eat grasshoppers then at least 1 or 2 of them would start eating grasshoppers just because you said it. And you've just managed to invent the hungry-for-grasshoppers disease.

No idea if any of that applies to this particular person.

Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

what Suineg set it to

Karen

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Karen

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Karen

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Karen

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