Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Denaut · Feb 5, 2015

???o?_sl said:
But what color belt?

Rather not talk about it

Mist · Feb 5, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
Yeah, and there is a difference in which ones we "protect". Mist is using the false equivalence that "protecting" scumbag Steve, is the same as "protecting" scared Stacy. But even a moment of thought reveals this is a fallacy. "Protecting" Steve is a consequence of not getting involved, it's a naturally neutral position, in where Steve uses his own personal power to prey on people. Protecting Stacy involves us getting involved, it involves US giving Stacy power.

The difference is, if Steve does something wrong; all we are guilty of is not protecting Stacy from him. If Stacy ends up smashing an innocent guy? Then what we are guilty of is not only not protecting said guy, but ALSO granted Stacey the power to do what she did. In one case we FAILED tostopa problem. In the other case weCAUSEDthe problem.

This is why EVER crime in treated this way. Because it's better for the state to be at fault through failing to act, then it is for the state to be at fault pressing it's huge amount of resources on someone by mistake. It's the essence of negative vs positive ill effect. It's why you let 10 guilty people go, rather than lock up one innocent person. Because the 10 guilty people? The culpability for them being bad is on them. That one innocent man? Well, the culpability is onus.

I'm operating under the assumption that a very very very tiny fraction of women are willing to go through the ridicule and character assaults and other accusations that go along with accusing someone of rape, if it didn't happen. The reason these false rape accusations make news is because they're so rare, where rapes are, by comparison, NOT rare and therefore not really news. I think the fear of false rape accusations is far more the case of media sensationalism than the fear of actual rapes.

Again, I don't like the new campus rape rules as they're being used against men. But I do not like the status quo with regards to young women being raped either. I think BOTH of those two things are causing traumas that are unhealthy for normal human sexuality to function.

I proposed some thought experiments to try to work this out but what I'm getting from the thread is 'status quo is fine go away.'

Lithose · Feb 5, 2015

Mist_sl said:
I really really don't want to bring personal anecdotes into this, even though you did earlier in the thread, but I've had plenty of acquaintances of both genders (friends even, back when I had friends) on this pretty rapey campus over the past 15 years or so. I know more than a few girls who were raped, and only one guy who was accused of rape, and I'm 99.9% sure it was false. And most of my acquaintances on campus were male, because of which campus clubs I've been apart of as either a member of an advisor, so it's not merely selection bias.

Did you KNOW the males as well as the female ones? You, a self identified anti-sociallesbian? Do you really think your relationships were as strong with the men that they told you as many things in confidence?

Voyce · Feb 5, 2015

This is a judgment free zone bro I won't shit on you for the ten years you w?a?s?t?e?d? trained Wing Chun.

just fucking with you bro, none of my business.

Mist · Feb 5, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
Did you KNOW the males as well as the female ones? You, a self identified anti-sociallesbian? Do you really think your relationships were as strong with the men that they told you as many things in confidence?

I would have known if someone I knew was being accused of rape by the school administration. It's not something that gets kept secret very well, especially for someone who's worked in practically every office on this place at some point. It's not like they had to tell me about it in confidence. And I've only REALLY been asocial for the past 5 years since the flood, at most the 8ish years since my mom tried to kill herself and all my friends bailed on me.

I've also never been a member of any LGBT and/or gay/straight alliance type clubs.

fanaskin · Feb 5, 2015

Mist_sl said:
I'm operating under the assumption that a very very very tiny fraction of women are willing to go through the ridicule and character assaults and other accusations that go along with accusing someone of rape, if it didn't happen. The reason these false rape accusations make news is because they're so rare, where rapes are, by comparison, NOT rare and therefore not really news.

last 3 "rape accusations to be splashed over the news" were ones that assumed the female was correct then their stories blew up mid story

Mist · Feb 5, 2015

fanaskin_sl said:
last 3 "rape accusations to be splashed over the news" were ones that assumed the female was correct then their stories blew up mid story

They became big stories because they fell apart. And that really just the three that stick out in your mind. Confirmation bias. There's tons of rape stories that never make any news, because they're so uninteresting.

Lithose · Feb 5, 2015

Mist_sl said:
I'm operating under the assumption that a very very very tiny fraction of women are willing to go through the ridicule and character assaults and other accusations that go along with accusing someone of rape, if it didn't happen. The reason these false rape accusations make news is because they're so rare, where rapes are, by comparison, NOT rare and therefore not really news. I think the fear of false rape accusations is far more the case of media sensationalism than the fear of actual rapes.

Again, I don't like the new campus rape rules as they're being used against men. But I do not like the status quo with regards to young women being raped either. I think BOTH of those two things are causing traumas that are unhealthy for normal human sexuality to function.

I proposed some thought experiments to try to work this out but what I'm getting from the thread is 'status quo is fine go away.'

1.) The false rapes you see make it to TV are rare because concrete fraud is SO hard to prove. Anything less than the woman admitting she defrauded the police is essentially counted as the police being sexist. There is actually a news clip on Youtube which supposedly illustrates how a female detective was sexist because she did not find enough evidence to accuse two men of rape (The detective showed that the friends of the "victims" said they were sober and willing to go home with the men, and were having fun and the ones' who proposed the idea of hooking up.) The fact is, that vast majority of "alleged" rapes that fall between "fraud" and "trial" are not concrete one way or the other, at all--and none of them go to the News, either. That's because a slam dunk rape case OR a slam dunk fraud case is very, very rare. Most of them could be anywhere between.

2.) You proposed some thought experiments and people pointed out that for centuries now we've struggled with these VERY things. We have evidence of why shit goes south when we push the laws in X direction, and that's why we X or Y id not done. People can not like the status quo, and yet still dislike alternatives more. That does not mean anyone is "fine with it." (You just distill down these sensational/hyperbolic, and ultimately overly simplistic, conclusions to try and scamper up to that moral high ground.)

fanaskin · Feb 5, 2015

Mist_sl said:
They became big stories because they fell apart.

uh no they didn't I was reading about mattress girl months ago, she was at the state of the union for fucks sake

they became even BIGGER stories for obvious reasons, but they were already big stories, they showed up in all my normal news feeds

also you asked before why she would carry around a mattress

Carrying the mattress for Sulkowicz serves a double purpose; not only has it garnered her national attention;it is also her senior project for her visual arts degree.

Chanur · Feb 5, 2015

Mist_sl said:
I agree completely, but the problem is that in a rape, in reality, both people are effectively on trial.

These are supposed to be hard questions.

Glad we could come to the hard but reasonable solution that our current process while flawed works best.

Big Phoenix · Feb 5, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Regardless, I don't think 'carry a weapon into the bedroom' is a good message that will incentivize girls to feel safer and have more sex.

No one said anything about a gun. Pro tip; half of not being a victim of a crime is not putting yourself in a position to be one or making yourself not worth the effort.

Maybe if women empowered themselves so they could handle these situations instead of being told to cry like the little girls they are and run to the big protective police officer this would be a lot less of a problem than it is now. At the end of the day, rape is still going to happen no matter what, fact of life. You can eliminate and capture every crazy person so learn to deal with them.

Tanoomba · Feb 5, 2015

???o?_sl said:
Mist I was in a Barber shop on Saturday, I had been in this barbershop before. First time I had been in the shop I got my hair cut by a super cute girl, and I was nervous because I felt I didn't want to come off as flirty and machismo, because i was thinking I bet she's had to deal with that before, plus I was honestly just looking to get a haircut. We didn't talk much but she seemed nice.

I went back to the Barbershop Saturday, again just looking to get a haircut (In the back of my mind thinking she might be there). Low and be hold not only is she there, but she cuts my hair again. This time we're like super flirty and we talk about a lot of stuff and I'm really digging on this girl and hoping that I'm reading the signals right. Come to find out that it's a family joint and the woman cutting hair beside her is her mom, anyway I tip her big but I don't work up the guts to ask her out.

So I'm feeling it all week, thinking I got to try again. So I drove over to the place, do a quick once over to scope it out (think I see her in the back). Go back to the care, spend like 40 minutes trying to build up the balls to walk in. Finally I say fuck it walk it, take a seat, don't see her...damn. Woman at the front asks what I want, and I ask about shaves (since my hair is already cut!), she's like need one of the guys their not there tonight. Anyway I jet outta there not seeing her, feeling dumb as shit (she might have been in the backroom, I couldn't tell).

Anyway Mist what should I do?

Do I schedule a shave, hoping she's there?

If she's there do I just try and chat her up?

If she's not do I chat the dude up giving me a shave, be straight and ask about the girl (might be his daughter for all I know).

Do I scope the place again, wait until I see her. Would that make me a creepy stalker?

I shouldn't have spent the first 40 minutes working the courage up, shoulda just went in..sigh

Just in case this is not a joke, I decided to give you a real response:

Do not ask out your barber. She is being paid to cut your hair and make you feel comfortable and welcome while she does it. That is part of her job. There is very little chance she goes to work hoping for potential mates to come in and ask her out.

Mist · Feb 5, 2015

Big Phoenix_sl said:
No one said anything about a gun. Pro tip; half of not being a victim of a crime is not putting yourself in a position to be one or making yourself not worth the effort.

Maybe if women empowered themselves so they could handle these situations instead of being told to cry like the little girls they are and run to the big protective police officer this would be a lot less of a problem than it is now. At the end of the day, rape is still going to happen no matter what, fact of life. You can eliminate and capture every crazy person so learn to deal with them.

That is a fucking horrible post. Can you tell me what the 'proper' way to handle being raped is?

"Run to the police officer..."

Seriously? If someone broke into your house would you blame yourself for not being home, standing in the window with a shotgun 24/7 and just not even bother to report it to the police? Are you fucking kidding me here?

Never mind the fact is the LAST thing a woman who's been raped wants to do is run to the police. The police are fucking assholes. The experience of being processed as a rape victim is one of the most dehumanizing things anyone can ever go through.

This whole thread is fucking disgusting and depressing. The unbelievable callousness of the people here makes me feel sick for humanity.

Mario Speedwagon · Feb 5, 2015

Well you hate humanity anyways so what the fuck right

Lithose · Feb 5, 2015

Mist_sl said:
This whole thread is fucking disgusting and depressing. The unbelievable callousness of the people here makes me feel sick for humanity.

I don't agree with Phoenix. But sorry, Mist. People aren't disgusting and callous because they believe that innocent until proven guilty is actually a useful thing. Your hyperbole is so strong on this one it's missing it's mark honestly, instead of making people reflect it's just making you look unhinged and totally irrational.

Mist · Feb 5, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
People aren't disgusting and callous because they believe that innocent until proven guilty is actually a useful thing.

I'm constantly sick of people mischaracterizing my own posts.

I wanted people to brainstorm some ideas for verifying consent for the protection of both parties. As an aside, I also wanted people to understand the inherent double-sided nature of a rape case, from incident report all the way to trial. Even in cases where there's evidence of physical trauma, the defense frequently puts the accused on trial saying she wanted it like that, so you can't just talk about physical evidence either.

I never once said anything about raising the standard of evidence or changing the burden of proof.

Sebudai · Feb 5, 2015

Both parties will need to meet with a state-sanctioned sex notary before they engage in intercourse. It's the only way to be sure.

khalid · Feb 6, 2015

Mist_sl said:
I never once said anything about raising the standard of evidence or changing the burden of proof.

You have been implying, over and over again, that there is a problem in the current system. That right now, defending the current status quo in rape cases where the primary consideration is on what can be proved in court, is defending rapists.

So yes, no one is mischaracterizing you when they say you are for the lowering of the standard of proof. You haven't said it directly, because you want to play pedantic games. Just don't expect anyone to let you get away with it.

Kirun · Feb 6, 2015

khalid_sl said:
You have been implying, over and over again

This is why I'm pretty convinced Mist is an actual woman. A bitter and miserable one, but a woman nonetheless.

Women love the power of implication. It gives them a necessary "out" to preserve their egos and lets them rationalize their inane arguments. See, when you implicity state things over and over, drawing somebody to a very obvious conclusion, you already have a built-in "out" with implication. All that you have to do is assert the position that you never actuallysaid/statedthose things, despite your implications leading any sane, rational person to said obvious conclusion.

Big Phoenix · Feb 6, 2015

Mist_sl said:
That is a fucking horrible post. Can you tell me what the 'proper' way to handle being raped is?

"Run to the police officer..."

Seriously? If someone broke into your house would you blame yourself for not being home, standing in the window with a shotgun 24/7 and just not even bother to report it to the police? Are you fucking kidding me here?

Never mind the fact is the LAST thing a woman who's been raped wants to do is run to the police. The police are fucking assholes. The experience of being processed as a rape victim is one of the most dehumanizing things anyone can ever go through.

This whole thread is fucking disgusting and depressing. The unbelievable callousness of the people here makes me feel sick for humanity.

So what exactly do you expect? What exactly do you think happens when a child is abducted or someone is murdered? You think the authorities dont pry into peoples lives, ask them personal questions, turn up skeletons people would rather be forgotten?

Do you want actual rapist caught or whoever a woman may think is a rapist?

Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

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