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Quaid · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
If that was a rape, any time any woman (or a man even) is coerced or intimidated into sex she finds unpleasant is a rape. That's probably like 10-20% of all sex, or more depending on your definition of coerced.

Sansa wasn't coerced into sex, it was her legal obligation. I guess you could define the law as 'coercion', but I certainly wouldn't.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Quaid_sl said:
Sansa wasn't coerced into sex, it was her legal obligation. I guess you could define the law as 'coercion', but I certainly wouldn't.

We're talking in the context of modern America, not Westeros.

Was that a rape or not in the context of modern America?

Gavinmad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
It's about ethics in premium cable television.

Ok this is pretty funny.

Lithose · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
You called it a rape, I said that even with video evidence it would be extremely difficult to pin rape charges on Ramsay even in modern day America, without the standard of "Yes means Yes".

You still insisted it was a rape because "reasons."

I said it was rape because I believe that is rape.Being able to prove it is rape are two different things. How is this hard? Throughout this WHOLE thread we've been talking about proof. Proving something in a marriage is difficult, yes. I'm a proponent of marital rape being a crime, though. But it IS hard to prove, for all the reasons stated in this thread. If there is video evidence of crying and resistance (Trying to stand)--I tend to think that's plenty without needing yes means yes.Nothingabout my opinion is hypocritical there.

Yes means yes shifts the burden though. If the character had literally take his cock out and jumped on his dick, without saying yes?She could still claim rape. That standard is shit because of that.Implication with body language and understanding, and context are HUGE in sexual encounters--which is why they require a lot of proof, hence what this ENTIRE thread has been about.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
I said it was rape because I believe that is rape.Being able to prove it is rape are two different things. How is this hard?

If you believe it is rape then you should want to make it easier to proven it given sufficient evidence. Otherwise you're just hedging or equivocating, calling an act monstrous while saying there's nothing that can be done about it, so you can't be blamed for either position.

AKA you're Misting way worse than me right now.

Lithose · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
If that was a rape, any time any woman (or a man even) is coerced or intimidated into sex she finds unpleasant is a rape. That's probably like 10-20% of all sex, or more depending on your definition of coerced.

No, unpleasant sex--and crying while being held down can encompass a MASSIVE range of things. Having sex with a headache can be unpleasant, it's not rape. You're attempting to be overly broad and leaving out crucial, easily visible details to salvage some kind of point because you jumped the gun in a childish tantrum and got embaressed when it was pointed out how far off the mark you are. Like I said before, it's kind of sad.

I know you want everyone against you to be a monster who doesn't care, Mist? Because it makes it so easy to make your world black and white. But the real world doesn't work that way. Many of us have very strong feelings about sexual violence. But we also understand the implications of things, and we try to be objective. This does not make us rape apologists or monsters--and your constant assertion of that, like trying to pin a scarlet letter on us through ad hom attacks? Only illustrates how weak your arguments are.

All you have is outrage and name calling. Like I said, I expect these kinds of arguments from a little kid, not an adult.

Seananigans · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Attitudes, mostly. It's fucking ridiculous how butthurt people get about a fictional character who very clearly consented according to the norms of her society when she accepted the marriage vows.

And yet real girls get taken advantage of in way worse situations every day and people shrug it off as "eh what're you gonna do about it."

You might think I have a silly false dichotomy here but I think you guys have an absurd level of cognitive dissonance.

Haha. On one hand you acknowledge that Sansa consented and acknowledged what she was getting in to, then on the other hand you go and talk about modern day "taking advantage of wimminz." Judging by your previous Misting, I'm going to assume you refer primarily to alcohol and the situations surrounding alcohol usage as the main source of "taking advantage" today.

Here's the thing. Speaking personally, I relate the two as quitenearlythe same. Sansa acknowledged what she was getting herself into, and forged ahead. She knew what she would probably need to do. She knew that given the guy is a creep, it might get weird. Women in modern times know what they're getting into. They choose to imbibe alcohol to the point of inebriety, and understand that they are still engaging with the opposite sex in said inebriated state. They understand that stuff might get weird.

I just have very little sympathy for women who put themselves in a situation like that. Women getting shit-faced drunk around the opposite sex is always THEIR choice. What the fuck more do you want? They have their choice, and they make it. If you say what you want is a 100% safe environment for women to get shit-faced drunkaround men, then I'm just going to laugh in your face. Good luck with that one. Sex isby farthe number one thing men want from women, and the degree of drive behind it is immense. It goes without saying that a large portion of them will take advantage of any opportunity they can get their hands on. A shit-faced woman is quite the opportunity for many men. This truth of this reality will never change. Move forward in full knowledge of the way reality works, rather than trying to re-write reality. You say you want more "awareness" or whatever of the "terrible plight of wimminz" in modern society. Well, guess what: the major cause of this supposed plight is consensually entered into by each and every one of them. Maybe alter your focus toward educating these idiot women better (assuming they perceive the same plight you do, which is questionable)?

Drinking to excess around the opposite sex really only has one purpose in our society. It is undoubtedly to facilitate the sexings. To argue otherwise is ignorant and naive.

And before you Mist all over me, let me be clear that I'm speaking toward your "taking advantage of" scenario, and not about forcible rape. Obviously regardless of the scenario, the latter is deplorable. Knowing that, feel free to rebutt.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Seananigans_sl said:
Haha. On one hand you acknowledge that Sansa consented and acknowledged what she was getting in to, then on the other hand you go and talk about modern day "taking advantage of wimminz." Judging by your previous Misting, I'm going to assume you refer primarily to alcohol and the situations surrounding alcohol usage as the main source of "taking advantage" today.

Here's the thing. Speaking personally, I relate the two as quitenearlythe same. Sansa acknowledged what she was getting herself into, and forged ahead. She knew what she would probably need to do. She knew that given the guy is a creep, it might get weird. Women in modern times know what they're getting into. They choose to imbibe alcohol to the point of inebriety, and understand that they are still engaging with the opposite sex in said inebriated state. They understand that stuff might get weird.

I just have very little sympathy for women who put themselves in a situation like that. Women getting shit-faced drunk around the opposite sex is always THEIR choice. What the fuck more do you want? They have their choice, and they make it. If you say what you want is a 100% safe environment for women to get shit-faced drunkaround men, then I'm just going to laugh in your face. Good luck with that one. Sex isby farthe number one thing men want from women, and the degree of drive behind it is immense. It goes without saying that a large portion of them will take advantage of any opportunity they can get their hands on. A shit-faced woman is quite the opportunity for many men. This truth of this reality will never change. Move forward in full knowledge of the way reality works, rather than trying to re-write reality. You say you want more "awareness" or whatever of the "terrible plight of wimminz" in modern society. Well, guess what: the major cause of this supposed plight is consensually entered into by each and every one of them. Maybe alter your focus toward educating these idiot women better (assuming they perceive the same plight you do, which is questionable)?

Drinking to excess around the opposite sex really only has one purpose in our society. It is undoubtedly to facilitate the sexings. To argue otherwise is ignorant and naive.

And before you Mist all over me, let me be clear that I'm speaking toward your "taking advantage of" scenario, and not about forcible rape. Obviously regardless of the scenario, the latter is deplorable. Knowing that, feel free to rebutt.

Drinking has absolutely nothing to do with this scenario. She was clearly fully conscious at all points.

You're the one that's Misting.

Lithose · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
If you believe it is rape then you should want to make it easier to proven it given sufficient evidence. Otherwise you're just hedging, calling an act monstrous while saying there's nothing that can be done about it.

If you have sufficient evidence Mist, rape is already easy to prove. The problem is there often times is not sufficient evidence. We don't have cameras in people's rooms. Again, how is this hard?

Have you ever been in a court room, at all? Ask Cad. I GUARANTEE if you were able to show a crying woman being held down by a man whose laughing as he brutalizes her? It would be instant convictions, every time. If you can provide that level of evidence (IE the level WE HAD last night?) Then by all means, Mist. We'll mail every rapist to the fucking wall out there!

Whenever it's convenient you can show me your patent for the insto-tapo-rape sex watching machine. (We'll make a fortune in porn too).

Seananigans · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Drinking has absolutely nothing to do with this scenario. She was clearly fully conscious at all points.

You're the one that's Misting.

God, you really are retarded aren't you. You're one of the ones (or the only one?) relating this fictional scenario to modern day. And when I address you, you flip it back around to the fictional scenario?

Ok, sure.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
If you believe it is rape then you should want to make it easier to proven it given sufficient evidence. Otherwise you're just hedging or equivocating, calling an act monstrous while saying there's nothing that can be done about it, so you can't be blamed for either position.

AKA you're Misting way worse than me right now.

Lithose_sl said:
No, unpleasant sex--and crying while being held down can encompass a MASSIVE range of things. Having sex with a headache can be unpleasant, it's not rape. You're attempting to be overly broad and leaving out crucial, easily visible details to salvage some kind of point because you jumped the gun in a childish tantrum and got embaressed when it was pointed out how far off the mark you are. Like I said before, it's kind of sad.

I know you want everyone against you to be a monster who doesn't care, Mist? Because it makes it so easy to make your world black and white. But the real world doesn't work that way. Many of us have very strong feelings about sexual violence. But we also understand the implications of things, and we try to be objective. This does not make us rape apologists or monsters--and your constant assertion of that, like trying to pin a scarlet letter on us through ad hom attacks? Only illustrates how weak your arguments are.

All you have is outrage and name calling. Like I said, I expect these kinds of arguments from a little kid, not an adult.

I preemptively responded to this, that's how predictable you are.

Quaid · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
We're talking in the context of modern America, not Westeros.

Was that a rape or not in the context of modern America?

Honestly, I'd have to watch it again. Did he threaten her at all?

Mist · May 18, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
If you have sufficient evidence Mist, rape is already easy to prove. The problem is there often times is not sufficient evidence. We don't have cameras in people's rooms. Again, how is this hard?

Have you ever been in a court room, at all? Ask Cad. I GUARANTEE if you were able to show a crying woman being held down by a man whose laughing as he brutalizes her? It would be instant convictions, every time. If you can provide that level of evidence (IE the level WE HAD last night?) Then by all means, Mist. We'll mail every rapist to the fucking wall out there!

Whenever it's convenient you can show me your patent for the insto-tapo-rape sex watching machine. (We'll make a fortune in porn too).

We're talking about this specific example where we do have video evidence.

How do you reconcile the law in such a way as to ensure that Sansa has sovereignty over her own body at all times?

That's my final question, I'm done.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Moving for a second to the other crime for which women are the primary victims and witnesses, domestic violence, we can't even get women to bring charges most of the time. I ended up representing the men because we were a defense clinic, and I'd talk to the DA's and they'd tell me right off which women weren't going to testify and we'd get them to drop charges or plead them to a class C. These are women who got beat up, plenty of physical evidence, no real defense to it - had we gone to trial my guy would get convicted, no question. But the women would drop charges, they'd decide the DA's were "unfairly prosecuting their misunderstood man", and other total horseshit. Or they'd realize they have to come to court and testify and decide its not worth the trouble.

I never had one domestic violence case go to trial, out of perhaps 15 defendants. The women always flaked. And these were almost 100% slam dunk cases.

Can't explain that.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
We're talking about this specific example where we do have video evidence.

How do you reconcile the law in such a way as to ensure that Sansa has sovereignty over her own body at all times?

That's my final question, I'm done.

The law already gives her sovereignty over her body at all times. (In 2015 in the USA.)

Lithose · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
I preemptively responded to this, that's how predictable you are.

I have responded to this, you avoided and tried to circle back your argument because you're being childish and realize your point was stupid. Not so much predictable, as you are juvenile.

Lithose_sl said:
Yes means yes shifts the burden though. If the character had literally take his cock out and jumped on his dick, without saying yes?She could still claim rape. That standard is shit because of that.Implication with body language and understanding, and context are HUGE in sexual encounters--which is why they require a lot of proof, hence what this ENTIRE thread has been about.

The irony here Mist is that while the rest of us argued over burdens of proof, but always said if we had the proof we'd be hard on rapists? You're here defending a clearly visible sign of distress as not rape....You're literally the only one in this thread now that has rape apologized.

The irony is delicious, please continue.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
The law already gives her sovereignty over her body at all times. (In 2015 in the USA.)

Would the law protect Sansa here given all of the evidence? I don't believe it would.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Would the law protect Sansa here given the evidence?

Video evidence? Yes. I'm confident Ramsey would get convicted today.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
I have responded to this, you avoided and tried to circle back your argument because you're being childish and realize your point was stupid. Not so much predictable, as you are juvenile.

The irony here Mist is that while the rest of us argued over burdens of proof, but always said if we had the proof we'd be hard on rapists? You're here defending a clearly visible sign of distress as not rape....You're literally the only one in this thread now that has rape apologized.

The irony is delicious, please continue.

I think what was done to Sansa is monstrous, but I don't think it would meet any modern standards of rape given the evidence. I don't think the state would even attempt to charge Ramsay for sexual assault.

EDIT: I don't only think it was monstrous, but I think worse things are done to 100s or 1000s of women every day in modern America and no one has the will to try to do anything about it.

Lithose · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
We're talking about this specific example where we do have video evidence.

How do you reconcile the law in such a way as to ensure that Sansa has sovereignty over her own body at all times?

That's my final question, I'm done.

If we have video evidence of it? I believe it's rape.

The law is already reconciled with that in states where there is marital rape (In the states where there isn't? I think there should be). So, not sure why you felt that question was pertinent. The law in most states guarantees a woman sovereignty over her own body.

Were you trying to askhow we can be assured that the law works 100% of the time? Well fuck Mist--that is the question of the ages, isn't it?

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