Camelot Unchained MMO

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Utnayan

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Ut, I think you are confusing a dash of hope with blind faith. Grim's post below reflects my own opinion, so to save time I'll just repost it:
Yeah I understand you and Grim1.

But I would say blind faith is Mark Jacobs getting $2 million for this on Kickstarter. Without a design doc, without any plan what so ever, and the only thing? Marketing 8 hot topics at least years Gamescom.

Seriously. The same 8 topics that were discussed at roundtable events of what makes a sandbox MMORPG fun for players. He took it, wrote it down, and now has $2 million.
 

Draegan_sl

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From your perspective, it could be worse. He could be doing this without an office space and an existing staff of 10 people.
 

Denaut

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You should still base that hope or faith onsomethingconcrete. I am hopeful the Occulus Rift will pan out for example, but that is based on a clear vision, technical details, and now some hands on early prototypes. Mark has given us nothing even close to that.
 

Utnayan

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You should still base that hope or faith onsomethingconcrete. I am hopeful the Occulus Rift will pan out for example, but that is based on a clear vision, technical details, and now some hands on early prototypes. Mark has given us nothing even close to that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWy7q6UnNDQ

You and I are buying hats, we will talk about how we will have the following in our game:

* NPC Artificial AI behavior patterns to mimic real life in all instances based on over 140 variables including but not limited to Weather, Seasons, PC Interaction, Monster interaction, quest behavior flagging, ...

Wait.... I now have more of a plan than Jacobs just by knowing I would have NPC AI/Behavior react based on 140 variables, so I must know what those 140 variables are.
 

Gecko_sl

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You should still base that hope or faith onsomethingconcrete. I am hopeful the Occulus Rift will pan out for example, but that is based on a clear vision, technical details, and now some hands on early prototypes. Mark has given us nothing even close to that.
A niche game sold on the things that attract me to MMO PVP gaming from someone who has actually delivered games is far more enticing to me than a VR headset that I see performing in a similar manner to Playstation's Move or Microsoft's Kinect.

I personally won't prepay or crowdfund either. I thinkCamelotUnchainedis years away from release and I'm not a fan of Kickstarter. I have zero faith in the Oculus Rift, even if the idea is cool as hell, and I'd love to see VR take off.
 

Draegan_sl

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I have more faith in the OR taking off than us seeing an MMORPG that the average user will play longer that 2 months.
 

Denaut

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A niche game sold on the things that attract me to MMO PVP gaming from someone who has actually delivered games is far more enticing to me than a VR headset that I see performing in a similar manner to Playstation's Move or Microsoft's Kinect.

I personally won't prepay or crowdfund either. I thinkCamelotUnchainedis years away from release and I'm not a fan of Kickstarter. I have zero faith in the Oculus Rift, even if the idea is cool as hell, and I'd love to see VR take off.
I don't see why you are comparing inferior input devices to what couldpotentiallybe a superior output device for a decent chunk of gaming. Out of curiosity, what do you think is so wrong about the rift?
 

Gecko_sl

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I LOVE the concept of the Rift. My point was more so if game companies can't even create a game that uses the Kinect correctly, I don't have much faith in them doing so for this.
 

agripa

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Looks like the goal got met with 18 hours to go I wonder who dumped 100k in during the last 4 hours.
 

Denaut

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I LOVE the concept of the Rift. My point was more so if game companies can't even create a game that uses the Kinect correctly, I don't have much faith in them doing so for this.
Not to get crazily off topic, but the Kinect is a crappy input device outside of a few very narrow game genres (like a dancing game). A head mounted display with motion tracking can be superior to a monitor for a decently large swath of game genres (with a huge list of caveats).
 

Pyksel

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Stretch goals are up.
2.1 - Archers are in along with another race per realm
2.25 - CU version of the Herald/Armory will be live
2.5 - The Depths and another race per realm

I'm glad they're bringing back the Herald, something I wish GW2 would have done.
 
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these stretch goals are just moreorless arbitrary amounts to get more $ which would have been added later to the game regardless. or, likely to have been added to the game at release if it weren't a ks.
can't blame them for doing it. because your not getting physical hardware, software i find is devalued and $/time estimate less ...defined.
 

Tmac

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Ok, so then his concepts DO revolve around a time when internet gaming was young, the technology was very immature, and many features were major compromises made due to those limitations not because they were good designs. I guess I got confused when I kept hearing the word "innovative."
Have you read up on Mark's idea for stealth? Seems pretty innovative. Here's the link and the scoop:Stealth in CU

I don't want to add a class that drives away as many people as it attracts whether due to the real or simply perceived power of stealthers. Nor do I want one that has to be continually nerfed to try to find just the right balance and to stave off the anger of non-stealthers.

While in an RvR game, while we will always be balancing classes, being killed by a stealther seems to generate more angry comments and e-mails than other classes. When the discussions here at CSE began to coalesce around an MMORPG, I did not want to repeat those bad old days of constant complaints (some valid, some not) and angry forums due to stealthers and the changes that we made to them. I did, however, want to find a way we might possibly bring them intoCamelotUnchainedbecause if we can do so in an innovative and fun way, we could add another interesting dynamic to the game.

IMO, some of the problems with stealth, from both a designer's and a player's perspective are:

1) A lot of potential stealthers, most likely the vast majority, want long duration stealth, but most victims hate it.
2) Most stealthers hate moving slowly in stealth mode, while the victims love it.
3) Some stealthers, like any other class, do want to be OP, but many welcome the challenge of a more difficult system that rewards smart play and skill, not just patience and stunlock (which is hated by the majority of victims because it removes their ability to actually fight back) and/or extremely powerful opening attacks.
4) Some stealthers don't want to be part of keep sieges or mass RvR, but others really want to be involved and help out in more ways than simply picking off lone players (wounded or not).
5) Most people dislike being killed by a stealther, but almost everyone hates being killed by multiple stealthers acting in concert.
6) "Easy on" stealth is widely despised by the victims and laughed at by some stealthers, and is usually a bit of a disconnect from most games' physical laws.
7) Some stealthers really want to play the role of a scout, while for others, the role of an assassin fits them best.
The problem was and is how to resolve these and other issues and make this fit together nicely. I don't want to simply implement Dark Age ofCamelot's system even if I could. Too many other developers have tried, and frankly, this game is about taking risk. It's about making choices matter, it's about this world and this lore, but most importantly, it's about RvR and the Veil.

The Veil, the term that plays such an important part in CU lure and to which some people's early reaction to was to see it as "fluff" or even trite, is so much more than just a bit of inter-dimensional detritus. As I discussed in my lore update, it is a living and sentient being that exists in the space between this world and that of the Emissaries. What if we could tie the Veil into the game at an even deeper level and make that a core mechanism for a stealth system? It's light bulb over the head time, Wart. For weeks I've been talking about a BSC (Bat S**t Crazy) idea for stealth, and here it is, in all its glory or folly.

What if we used the Veil as almost a different world for stealthers? What if being in it allows them to move normally through it, but also comes with some significant downsides? After all, the Veil is alive and sentient, and it's in a real pissed-off mood these days. How could we implement a system utilizing the Veil that both makes playing solo stealthers feasible and allows them to contribute to RvR, but can also act as a shadow world? For the consideration of our backers and comments from those waiting in the wings, I present my concept for VeilWalkers and VeilStalkers.

A VeilWalker is a being that can, as the name suggests, move through the Veil in much the same manner as we move through our world. They do pierce it, but not in the same manner as the apocalyptic event, and they do so almost undetected by it. The world around them shifts as if they were seeing it through gauze.

While within its "body", they can move at normal and sometimes heightened speed.
Like our bodies, however, it also has its own defenses, so VeilWalkers must always be on guard. Think of the scene in the movie Fantastic Voyage when the anti-bodies attack both the sub and anyone outside it. That's only one of the ways the Veil fights back against invaders, and it can also throw other challenges at a VeilWalker plying his/her craft. For example, there are also the spirits of dead VeilWalkers who seek to consume their living counterparts' souls to ease their painful existence.

Speaking of pain, walking through the Veil hurts VeilWalkers and can change them over time. This pain is also greater the more stealthers are in proximity to you and the longer you stay close to each other. In addition, the Veil can send out illusions to confuse VeilWalkers, especially less experienced ones.

Now, what do you get for all this risk? Power, movement speed, a game within a game and a challenge like no other. VeilWalkers won't make great scouts (our archers would be a better choice) and they aren't great at sneaking up and going all stunlock or stabby/stabby, but they can move through unprotected walls, levitate over objects, learn to control aspects of the Veil's defenses and use them to their advantage, and so much more.

There is no easy on button for entering the Veil so it can't be used as an escape valve. Also, the more stealthers that are together in an area, the more that the Veil fights back, especially when they are all from the same realm. Forming and maintaining a "gank squad" in the Veil will not be an easy task, and frankly, it will be less rewarding for stealthers than soloing.

The BSC train still hasn't stopped. To make it even more interesting for stealthers, I added the concept of a VeilStalker. This class cannot move within the Veil, but its powers are geared to hunting VeilWalkers from outside. They can detect them, lay down traps and prepare other defenses. They are best at dealing with VeilWalkers and protecting other players/areas from them. Walkers/stalkers are two sides of the same coin.

But wait, there's more! Remember when I said that VeilWalkers' best abilities are useful within the Veil? Well, there are a couple exceptions. One is being attacked by a VeilStalker. When a stalker reaches into the Veil to attack a walker, you guessed it, the walker can fight back, and when he does, his powers can extend into the world. Think of it as a perpetual feedback loop. They can also attack outside the Veil but they are at their best within it.

The Veil holds mysteries and power, but it comes with a price. Within it,the walkers are deadly, with special abilities and powers that cannot be used outside. An "easy on" stealth button so you can hunt down single players? Meh. Hunting other hunters within a sentient body that wants you dead while stalkers on the outside are looking for any signs of your presence... now there's a challenge worthy of a great player. So what do you say people, BSC or not? Fun or not?

To summarize, stealthers enter a shadow world, that actively attacks them and confuses them, when they go stealth mode. They're super powerful when they attack from this shadow world, but also get attacked by the shadow world...

The building/mining design is based on Minecraft's building style, which I think would also be cool in an MMO. It's simple, but obviously gives players a lot of freedom:Building/Mining in CU

To understand how this is going to work, we have to start with the concept of cells. Cells are the building blocks of the world, similar to the blocks in MinecraftT or pieces in LegoT and other games. Our cells are different though not only size from Minecraft (they will be at least ? the size) but in other ways as well. These cells can be placed down in the world in the same manner that blocks are placed down in other games, individually or in groups (Prefabs). Cells are perfect for the builder that wants a free-form building method of improvisation. However, instead of having to build the entire world one cell at a time, builders can also choose to use prefabs to help speed up their building time.

Prefabs are constructs made up of a group of cells that the players can also place down in the world. Unlike cells, prefabs

Are not solid and/or filled.
Can be made by combining cells.
Prefabs can be added to other prefab to create a new prefab.
Simple Rotations - Major cardinal directions only.
Using both cells and prefabs players can build structures throughout most of the world (you can't build in certain parts of the main cities and other locked locations). Crafters/builders can create the cells, prefabs, etc. are used by players. These come from mines and other resource producing areas. For the purposes of this document, let's just focus on mines.

Mines are going to be one of the primary sources of materials for builders. They come in all shapes and sizes and they are filled with various raw materials. Players can enter these mines and gather the materials; they can also dig shafts looking for new veins. Unlike mines/nodes found in most MMORPGs, these mines are not meant to be mined out quickly by one or even a few players. Additionally, to help encourage realm pride, we will design these mines to be mined cooperatively by players. Think of the gold mining scene in the film "The Hobbit - An Unexpected Journey" for reference.

SinceCamelotUnchainedis an RvR game, we have to be careful with the amount of digging and tunneling we allow players to do. After all, if we allowed players to simply dig wherever they wanted, the game would quickly turn into "TunnelingUnchained" instead ofCamelotUnchainedAlso, unlike some other games, digging through the ground is not instantaneous or easy, so like in "The Great Escape" don't expect to easily tunnel out of trouble and into freedom. To prevent players from all doing their best imitation of the gopher in "Caddyshack" I introduced the concept of bubbles into the design.

Bubbles are areas that exist below the surface of the world. These bubbles can be of different sizes but are totally self-contained and while you can dig throughout them, you will eventually reach the wall of the bubble. Once you do that, you cannot dig any further with or without magical help unless, of course, we allow that to happen (open up a new bubble/mine). This helps prevent players from using the mines as a way to tunnel into enemy territory and simply pop up under the enemy's structures. Now, I'm not saying this can't happen because we may want to use this concept to have hidden paths that can be discovered by the players but players should expect this to happen very often. Also, Bubbles are contained within the "zone" structure ofCamelotUnchained. They are not individual instances but simply zones that players move in and out of as they pass through the mine entrances.

Players can control mines through the territorial control system ofCamelotUnchained. In order to help foster realm pride, owning most mines doesn't give total control of the mine to a player or guild but rather it yields a "piece of the action" to he player or guild that controls it. This will reward the player or the guild for discovering and controlling the mine but not harm realm pride because it encourages, rather than discourages, cooperation between players and guilds. Some mines, because they are either too small or too large will allow for control by an individual or the realm itself but these are in the minority.

Mines, since they are persistent and non-instanced, can also be set up with traps and other devices to protect it from attack by the other realms. Additionally, like other structures inCamelotUnchained, in times of strife, the side that controls them can destroy these mines.

Overall, the key features of mining inCamelotUnchainedare:

Mines are bubbles that are contained within separate world zones.
Long lasting, not simply "hit with a hammer a few times and watch them disappear" types of mines.
Mines are meant to support many players unlike traditional MMO mines.
More players/miners = more bonuses (more on this in the cooperative play section).
Overall design encourages realm-mates working together and helps build Realm Pride rather than discouraging it
Mines can be claimed.
Small mines can be claimed by individuals, groups and guilds.
Large mines can be claimed by the realm as well and shared with players.
Mines can be protected - i.e.: traps and defenses. Collapsible - Can heavily damage them to prevent easy reuse by the enemy.
COOPERATION

Another aspect of these systems that will set it apart from the crowd is the introduction of cooperative play into the building, housing and mining system. We will both encourage players to work together and at the same time, create mechanics to reduce the likelihood of elements of our systems harming Realm Pride. One of these elements is how we are going to use positive reinforcement through cooperative play.

First, while players can own and control plots of land, they can also give permission on these plots to other people to allow them to build on them at the same time. While this will certainly lead to some mischievous behavior at times, the time, energy and cost of carrying out this behavior will help discourage some potential griefing both by friends and other members of their realm.

Secondly, as I explained in the video, our mines are not going to be short duration, one-at-a-time affairs. Our mines are more realistic in that are designed to be used by lots of different miners over time. As a matter of fact, while multiple miners will indeed deplete the resources more quickly, the miners will also get a bonus for working together.

Thirdly, players will also gain building "speed bonuses" for working together on structures. While 50 crafters cannot put up a huge wall instantly, the work will go much faster if they work together. Cooperative play will also be encouraged through the use of caravans and other ways to get both crafters and materials to the front lines. We will also explore the concept of allowing players to act as foremen on projects to help speed things up, add some additional quality/durability/etc. High-level crafters and builders will also be able to speed things up by hiring NPC helpers for some tasks.

In summary, cooperative play inCamelotUnchained's building system has the following planned core components:

Players work together to build structures, mine, etc.
The more crafters involved, the more benefits will scale till max.
All plots have permissions to allow other players to build/help build a structure on a plot. Plots
Plots can decay/degrade overtime if not kept up (Possible - time and/or monetary costs).
Players risk of losing plot ownership if player doesn't maintain properly.
Bring in Prefabs and/or Material/Resources to help build a structure.
Possible use of foremen on projects, mines, etc.
Possible "Can I help" coordination, permissions, etc.
Possibly allow control of NPCs to speed up some activities for high-level crafters/builders/
Upgrades - any player can contribute to upgrading a structure (wood -> stone -> metal -?)
Constructs can evolve over time.
That's all for Part One!



Crafting also seems pretty innovative, but like I said, I'm not in the industry and the technical side is Greek to me:

 

Tmac

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I'm NOT fanboi'ing by the way.

I'd just like people's take on these features, as I thought were pretty cool, from a design/technical aspect.

It seems like everyone's talking shit without actually discussing the features that are "bad" and I'm tired of hearing, "Oh, Mark Jacobs... Can't wait to see this game fail. Now I'm going to talk shit about it without using any specific examples."

I did your job for you. Discuss.
 

Tuco

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I agree with Utnayan and Deanut but man what a pair of negative nancies. Give it a rest and do something with your life besides shit talking these guys before they fail.
 

Tmac

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I agree with Utnayan and Deanut but man what a pair of negative nancies. Give it a rest and do something with your life besides shit talking these guys before they fail.
So, you agree with what? I'm serious.

All I've heard anyone negative here say is:
1) Mark Jacobs sucks
2) This game is based on old concepts
3) He's a relic designer, therefore he'll fail
4) This game is all hype (duh?)

Yet, no one has mentioned a design flawspecifictoCamelotUnchained.

In the spirit of the title of this thread, I'd at least like to hear what sucks about CU, other than Mark Jacobs...
 
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"It seems like everyone's talking shit without actually discussing the features that are "bad" and I'm tired of hearing, "Oh, Mark Jacobs... Can't wait to see this game fail. Now I'm going to talk shit about it without using any specific examples."

that's a gambit.

from the start, they had nothing to show other than their vision.
their song and dance has been destestable so as to put off alot of people. i'm intrigued with some of the designs, but annoyed with his song and dance.
the stuff you posted aren't specific examples. they are hastily put together concepts. that's absolutely fine and doesn't necessarily invalidate it, but, to me, does nothing except to lay a framework for which people grandize it - too see the potential when there is not much there. this is very much in the idea phase.

i can appreciate 'a' vision, but until it's actually implemented it doesn't really mean much.
designing the stealth mechanic to solve problems such as preventing stealth groups, etc seems at first a good idea. but it's just an idea that doesn't mean anything until implemented. could easily turn out that the more fair it is the less fun it is. at this point, there aren't that many details about stealth.

contrast this to pathfinder.

you are being sold ideas. there can't be design flaws.

the one point that i found interesting was that there would be spell interrupts a la daoc. javascript ui is intriguing.
 

Draegan_sl

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So, you agree with what? I'm serious.

All I've heard anyone negative here say is:
1) Mark Jacobs sucks
2) This game is based on old concepts
3) He's a relic designer, therefore he'll fail
4) This game is all hype (duh?)

Yet, no one has mentioned a design flawspecifictoCamelotUnchained.

In the spirit of the title of this thread, I'd at least like to hear what sucks about CU, other than Mark Jacobs...
Uh well, all there is to CU right now is Mark Jacobs and the myriad of ideas he's tossing around. There isn't anything else to discuss. There really is not much difference, right now, betweenCamelotUnchainedand any of the armchair dev threads on this forum.
 

Tmac

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Uh well, all there is to CU right now is Mark Jacobs and the myriad of ideas he's tossing around. There isn't anything else to discuss. There really is not much difference, right now, betweenCamelotUnchainedand any of the armchair dev threads on this forum.
Sorry Draegan, I call bullshit.

There are already a few proof of concept videos, two of which I posted. There's also at least one topic to discuss: housing.

If this were another game, where such information wasn't available (ala Copernicus), and mere promises were being tossed around, then I'd agree. However, this simply isn't the case.While I agree that there are promises being thrown aroundthere's still plenty ofproof-of-conceptevidence to be seen. As the industry standard goes, this is definitely above the curve.

Let's compare this to Wildstar. Two weeks ago we discovered what housing would be like in Wildstar from an in-game standpoint. CU just finished the Kickstarter fundraiser and we have already seen the interface and a proof-of-concept for housing... There's far more information available than the "concept artist" pics we're used to seeing at this point.