Camelot Unchained MMO

Denaut · May 1, 2013

Tmac47_sl said:
I'm in a similar camp with Caal. I'm not fan-boyingCamelotUnchained, but it sounds like a good niche game.

Does no one else agree that it's a nice change to see how open they're being with their proof-of-concept materials? Obviously they have to show something to kickstarter investors, but it's definitely a nice change.

Ok, look, here is my point, it doesn't even sound good on paper. When you do something long enough, you get a sense for people that know and don't know what they are talking about, there is no secret to it. The same is probably true in your profession.

For example, Josh Sawyer has an excellent blog, he is a solid designer. I have faith in projects he works on based on a) his portfolio and b) his understanding of design as expressed through his writings. Another example is one of the marketing videos for X:Com before it came out (I tried but couldn't find it) where Jake Solomon talked about their approach for the game. I really wish I could find it because it hit all the right points and moved my hand to pre-order, something I RARELY do.

I might not be able to tell how successful a game will be based on how a designer talks about it, but I'd probably have a better than random prediction for how GOOD a game will be based on the thoughts and concepts of the developer.

Denaut · May 1, 2013

Utnayan_sl said:
Did you change usernames? I may have two people I know with the same resume then.

Nope, you've said yourself how small the industry is and how much people are just shifted around. I am no one important though, you probably wouldn't even know who I was if I told you my name.

Draegan_sl · May 1, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
I agree with that. But SWTOR's fall should make us wary of EVERY mmo coming out (most of us are). They had even more going for them than WildStar.

I agree. But like I said, it's different levels of wariness.

Grim1 · May 1, 2013

Denaut, most people here actually share your concerns. But there just isn't any other horse going in the direction that the RvR PvP crowd wants. So they have to saddle up with the one that is available.

If you think you can do better then PLEASE by all means do so. We will back you in a heart beat. But until you or some other dev is willing to lead then Mark Jacobs is going to be it. You complaining about it isn't going to change minds. Saddle up or we'll just ignore you.

If Mark fails nobody will be suprised, nobody is blind to the risk.

Gecko_sl · May 1, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
No he's a dev doing other things, not mmos. I worked in the industry for a time back in the 90's, doesn't make me an expert.

Given the state of the MMO landscape, I doubt there is a single actual expert out there.

I'm also baffled about the statement that CU is just a projection of what old time gamers would like to see in an MMO. That seems a good idea after .38S being a projection of.. nothing? and SWTOR being derivative of Mass Effect with WOWs endgame plastered on top. I'd say CU is ahead of the curve. It's nice someone actually has a plan, and sure a lot of it is marketing, but its on kickstarter for a reason.

Pyksel · May 1, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
Denaut, most people here actually share your concerns. But there just isn't any other horse going in the direction that the RvR PvP crowd wants. So they have to saddle up with the one that is available.

If you think you can do better than PLEASE by all means do so. We will back you in a heart beat. But until you or some other dev is willing to lead then Mark Jacobs is going to be it. You complaining about it isn't going to change minds. Saddle up or we'll just ignore you.

If Mark fails nobody will be suprised, nobody is blind to the risk.

Well said Grim and I agree if someone else can do better please bring it up, let's get it backed!

Denaut · May 1, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
Denaut, most people here actually share your concerns. But there just isn't any other horse going in the direction that the RvR PvP crowd wants. So they have to saddle up with the one that is available.

If you think you can do better than PLEASE by all means do so. We will back you in a heart beat. But until you or some other dev is willing to lead then Mark Jacobs is going to be it. You complaining about it isn't going to change minds. If Mark fails nobody will be suprised, nobody is blind to the risk.

What DO RvR fans want out of a game? I hear conflicting all over the map desires and no coherent vision for what a good RvR game is. I honestly wouldn't mind someone telling me what that is.

I do work on PvP games, and I am hoping one or more of them take off, I am more than willing to put up. I wouldn't make the kind of game Mark vaguely hints at because what little I can gather of his ideas sound dated, poorly designed, and boring.

Draegan_sl · May 1, 2013

What are you baffled about? Mark Jacobs himself said this game is all about old school methods wrapped inside of a modern day game. He is going after old time gamers, he has also specifically said he is targetting the niche for 30-50k players. I don't think Mark really has a Plan yet. He has really just been espousing game style philsophey.

Grim1 · May 1, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
What DO RvR fans want out of a game? I hear conflicting all over the map desires and no coherent vision for what a good RvR game is. I honestly wouldn't mind someone telling me what that is.

I do work on PvP games, and I am hoping one or more of them take off, I am more than willing to put up. I wouldn't make the kind of game Mark vaguely hints at because what little I can gather of his ideas sound dated, poorly designed, and boring.

DAoC 2 is pretty much the consensus. Of course the devil is in the details.

Utnayan · May 1, 2013

Gecko_sl said:
Given the state of the MMO landscape, I doubt there is a single actual expert out there.

I'm also baffled about the statement that CU is just a projection of what old time gamers would like to see in an MMO. That seems a good idea after .38S being a projection of.. nothing? and SWG being derivative of Mass Effect with WOWs endgame plastered on top. I'd say CU is ahead of the curve. It's nice someone actually has a plan, and sure a lot of it is marketing, but its on kickstarter for a reason.

If all it takes to get people to donate $2 million to a cause is to hire a guy to talk about his LoL experience and have a failed President of an ex MMORPG company come on and start on about hot button topics for his game like Peter Molyneux in an alternate universe, the industry, and it's fans, are in worse shape than I thought.

I don't think Mark really has a Plan yet.

He may want to have one now that he has 2 million dollars of consumer dollars.

Jesus when I read that quote and my reply, Kickstarter should fucking be illegal.

Tmac · May 1, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
I might not be able to tell how successful a game will be based on how a designer talks about it, but I'd probably have a better than random prediction for how GOOD a game will be based on the thoughts and concepts of the developer.

From a technical design or game design standpoint?

I ask because I'm curious as to what the tale-tale signs are that this game will be bad.

I know in my own industry that it's easy to see where ideas will win and fail, so I have no doubt that you can do the same. I'm just not in this industry, so my perspective is that of a very informed consumer.

Gecko_sl · May 1, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
DAoC 2 is pretty much the consensus. Of course the devil is in the details.

Personally, I'd say original DAOC Frontiers with none of the crap PVE, but Realm Ranks, planned relic raids, good viable small team combat, and a few other hooks.

If they could incorporate Darkness Falls in a non PVE manner, that'd be great, but I don't see it possible in a PVP focused game.

Denaut · May 1, 2013

Ok, so then his concepts DO revolve around a time when internet gaming was young, the technology was very immature, and many features were major compromises made due to those limitations not because they were good designs. I guess I got confused when I kept hearing the word "innovative."

Denaut · May 1, 2013

Tmac47_sl said:
From a technical design or game design standpoint?

I ask because I'm curious as to what the tale-tale signs are that this game will be bad.

I know in my own industry that it's easy to see where ideas will win and fail, so I have no doubt that you can do the same. I'm just not in this industry, so my perspective is that of a very informed consumer.

A bit of both. It is by no means a crystal ball, but I'd say better than someone that is a competent gamer. I've talked about the tell-tale signs in previous posts, give me a second to find and link one.

Gecko_sl · May 1, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
Ok, so then his concepts DO revolve around a time when internet gaming was young, the technology was very immature, and many features were major compromises made due to those limitations not because they were good designs. I guess I got confused when I kept hearing the word "innovative."

Well, I'd prefer a holodeck, you know...

He's making a niche MMO game on a very limited budget. What do you expect him to do?

Utnayan · May 1, 2013

Well, you could probably start knowing it's Mark Jacobs. Somehow the most obvious is... Christ people cannot be this dumb can they? Is it being obtuse on purpose or is it really just flailing arms? I mean there is hoping you have a niche game and something to want to play, and then there is looking at who is making it and you * Know * it is going to fail and bomb and yet, ignore the rocket launch...

Has the industry fallen so much that any desperation of hope from any idiot will now count as something to look forward to and promote?

Holy shit.

Draegan_sl · May 1, 2013

We need a Rerolled Kickstarter so I can roam across the world getting Rerolled written on Boobs. Tier 1 donaters get Ass Shots. Tier 2 donaters get the chick's phone number. Tier 3 donaters get their own name on boobs.

Grim1 · May 1, 2013

Sign me up for Tier 4

Denaut · May 1, 2013

Gecko_sl said:
Well, I'd prefer a holodeck, you know...

He's making a niche MMO game on a very limited budget. What do you expect him to do?

Have good ideas or an understanding of design?

For me the tell-tale sign that CU will be bad is how poor an understanding of game design Jacobs has, I talk about it inthis postwhere I briefly go through one of his foundations blog entries.

Gecko_sl · May 1, 2013

Ut, I think you are confusing a dash of hope with blind faith. Grim's post below reflects my own opinion, so to save time I'll just repost it:

Grim1_sl said:
most people here actually share your concerns. But there just isn't any other horse going in the direction that the RvR PvP crowd wants. So they have to saddle up with the one that is available.

If you think you can do better then PLEASE by all means do so. We will back you in a heart beat. But until you or some other dev is willing to lead then Mark Jacobs is going to be it. You complaining about it isn't going to change minds. Saddle up or we'll just ignore you.

If Mark fails nobody will be suprised, nobody is blind to the risk.

Camelot Unchained MMO

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