Camelot Unchained MMO

Ut is a pretty easy target. That being said, has he said anything that can be proven false? I can't think of anything that he has said that hasn't been said by someone else.

The people that are ganging up on Ut are just whiteknighting developers for some reason. We all want good games, and because of that we should be skeptical of relic developers, whomever they may be. It does not good to add to the conversation by whiteknighting people.

Denaut_sl said:

What I wouldliketo see is him take just one of these MANY features he mentions and lay out how it will work stem to stern, why it works this way, what are its benefits and potential problems, then how they intend to mitigate those potential problems. The details matter, they matter A LOT, and if you just keep skipping around "designing cool things" before working out the details or kinks of the previous system then you end up with 100 20% developed features instead of 20 fully developed features. This is a problem, a big one, one that leaves me with absolutely no confidence in the project.

I criticize it so harshly because CU is such a fantastic public case study on how not to design a game, and yet it is somehow taking so many people in.

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These just aren't fair points. Sure, they could end up being the case, but don't they have to be in the studio for longer than 20 minutes to iron out every idea? Or are you suggesting no new ideas should be allowed inside a studio until every nook and cranny of a design has been worked out? Are you criticizing him for giving us a glimpse into what he's got in mind, even if it's just scratching the surface?

Draegan_sl said:

The people that are ganging up on Ut are just whiteknighting developers for some reason. We all want good games, and because of that we should be skeptical of relic developers, whomever they may be. It does not good to add to the conversation by whiteknighting people.

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Sure, but how much hearsay do you need be repeated adnauseum?

White Knighting and shitting on everything are two extremes. I don't see many white knights here, mostly people saying "Hey something different, cool lets see how it goes" and others that obviously don't like MJ for personal reasons.

Some have been burned by people in the industry, others kiss <name> developer's ass because <name> gave them their first financial hand job and others are just gamers looking for something other than a fucking half ass WoW clone.

Regardless of where you fall CU is so early in development, umm like just starting, that its really premature to be acting like the world is going to divide by zero because the game sucks so bad.

I think people are excited that someone is trying to do something different regardless if MJ raped your mother's ass while pouring sugar in your gas tank. The man has, if nothing else, had his games advance the genre significantly despite the other issues present. I certainly don't give him a pass but I also don't forget about what games he has lead contributed to the genre.

RvR
DF
Public Events
Leveling via instanced PVP
Herald
Varied Skill trees for classes
tons of unique classes in a single game

With all the mediocre to shitty WoW clones and flat out shitty MMO's I'll gladly take something a little different. Sure it might suck, might be vaporware or could be portable tits and pussy in a box. We'll see in a few years what they can do.

Draegan_sl said:

The people that are ganging up on Ut are just whiteknighting developers for some reason. We all want good games, and because of that we should be skeptical of relic developers, whomever they may be. It does not good to add to the conversation by whiteknighting people.

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Nor is any progress made by continually spewing vitriolic banter. You're absolutely right that we all want good games and we should remain skeptical of relic developers but where is that line between letting go of the grudge to give the project a chance vs. constantly throwing up the past? I completely agree with some of Ut and Denaut's points but some of them seem to be centered around ideas that were cherry picked out of small updates without looking at the bigger picture and getting all the information. If someone state's that they don't care enough to look up additional information then why continue to bash on it? That literally makes zero sense and contributes to nothing. If you seriously have the knowledge, skill, and believe you know how to do it better then why the hell are you wasting your time bashing these guys when you should be out there putting your own game together to show us how it's done?

I believe that with Mark flying under a new banner, a different crew, different approach to the backing, and a niche target, there is no doubt in my mind that this will go down a different path than his previous endeavors. Will the end result be the same? Who knows but at least he's "trying" to do something different and that makes it interesting enough for me to check it out. If you feel the project has a shot but you don't like certain ideas then when the backers forums open up get your ass on there and voice your opinion. I can't guarantee that your ideas will change the project but I can guarantee doing it here won't.

Utnayan_sl said:

There is a difference between writing a bunch of stuff on paper and garnering $2 million from a fanbase that just got fooled, and actually being able to prove they have a plan in the normal grand scheme of getting funding. If you think this is a good thing for the genre/industry, you are mistaken. I am for kickstarter because it brings about fresh ideas and a chance to create something good. I am also against publishers that stifle creativity. But at least even publishers recognize they aren't going to give a development firm $2 millon (Or more) without seeing a fucking design document detailing the balance around such design decisions.

This brings crowd funding to an all new low. And as far as I am concerned, before these people are allowed to even pitch their project on Kickstarter, there should at least be SOME semblance of oversight to make sure these same people have a fucking chance of even shipping a product.

Some of these idiots are already clueless enough with publisher backing and milestones. Heaven help us when these same morons don't have an oversight system and a pitchman to garner too much cash.

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Impossible to disagree with. I'll just offer my very simple and straight forward pov. I'm glad I was given the option to speak with my wallet. Regardless of whether or not the project ends up being worth a damn, it'll be different, and more to the point, it'll be for me.

Caal_sl said:

These just aren't fair points. Sure, they could end up being the case, but don't they have to be in the studio for longer than 20 minutes to iron out every idea? Or are you suggesting no new ideas should be allowed inside a studio until every nook and cranny of a design has been worked out? Are you criticizing him for giving us a glimpse into what he's got in mind, even if it's just scratching the surface?

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Fair questions. Let me explain a bit to try and give some perspective. With plenty of exceptions, there are 2 main ways to get money from a publisher. One is they send out an RFP, or request for pitch, and the other is you actively go around presenting your own pitches. In both cases you have to present a document that is a surprisingly complete run-down of the game; how it works, what they major features are, how they interact, and what your monetization methods are. You usually have 2 versions of this, one being the super high level 1-3 page version, and then a much more detailed outline that can run anywhere from 10-30 or so pages depending on the size of the game.

The point is, this document needs to be clear, concise, and be detailed enough to negotiate your time-frame, team size, and budget with the publisher. Since you are asking the publisher for money, they want to know what they will get for their money. The time it takes to generate this document is in the order of days to a couple of weeks.

I say all this not because I want to see a pitch document for CU (although that would be nice and frankly is a major problem all of these Kickstarter funded games, they want our money as if we were a publisher but don't really respect that funder/fundee relationship), but to explain how I know when someone has or hasn't given the proper amount of attention to their ideas in the time-frame they've had to work on it. I've written quite a number of pitches and high level designs by this point, so I know what questions Mark should and should not be able to answer and to what detail he should be able to answer them.

He has a completely insufficient grasp on the scope of his project, and is unable or unwilling to answer questions he should know while instead rattling on about unimportant details that don't matter at this point. It isn't that he shouldn't share his ideas, it is just that he should share them in the clear and complete manner a professional developer would instead of, no offense to you guys, a random forum poster that likes to play MMOs.

Ha, I wrote my post before reading the rest of the conversation. I happen to agree with Ut 100%. And, for the record, I am making games actively and am fully capable of putting my money where my mouth is.

Draegan_sl said:

The people that are ganging up on Ut are just whiteknighting developers for some reason. We all want good games, and because of that we should be skeptical of relic developers, whomever they may be. It does not good to add to the conversation by whiteknighting people.

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I could care less about this game and whoever is developing it. I merely enjoy watching Ut turn into a rabid dog when it comes to certain developers. There's being "skeptical" and there is Ut's approach(again it only seems to be a select few developers).

Denaut_sl said:

Ha, I wrote my post before reading the rest of the conversation. I happen to agree with Ut 100%. And, for the record, I am making games actively and am fully capable of putting my money where my mouth is.

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Considering the amount of time you and UT spend trashing a game that just got funded and is years away from release, I'm surprised you even have time to make coffee .

And Draegan is disembling, nobody is whiteknighting devs here, and he knows it. We're all just laughing at the ridiculous spectacle of two people's brains exploding over something that isn't even in alpha yet.

Grim1_sl said:

Considering the amount of time you and UT spend trashing a game that just got funded and is years away from release, I'm surprised you even have time to make coffee

.

And Draegan is disembling, nobody is whiteknighting devs here, and he knows it. We're all just laughing at the ridiculous spectacle of two people's brains exploding over something that isn't even in alpha yet.

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My brain isn't exploding, but keep in mind it is my profession and livelihood we are discussing, not necessarily just THIS game specifically. It would be strange is I wasn't passionate about it.

But it sounds more like a hissy fit between two rival cloths designers. Cat fight. Except one isn't participating.

I'll wait until there is something concrete to actually review (see the TESO thread). Panning a dev wish list document is silly.

Grim1_sl said:

But it sounds more like a hissy fit between two rival cloths designers. Cat fight. Except one isn't participating.

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More like I am using his writings and ideas as a foil to explain what makes good design. It isn't a cat fight or hissy fit, I've never met the guy and I don't know him. If anything he has become a representative target for my frustration with the industry's contempt for the design profession, mostly because the contempt heaped upon people like him is deserved but it makes us all look bad. Mark and CU happen to be an excellent target because they currently very public and very flawed.

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:

Call me naive, but these people are making games, fucking games, why do they need more money to do so in a given year than say a biological research laboratory? Does everyone in that industry have 6+ figure salaries?

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Well, essentially more money is put into these things because more money comes out of them. You'll never get me to argue that what I do is necessary or even all that important, but it is technical work. Just because it isn't important doesn't mean it isn't difficult or expensive. The general misallocation of resources in society is a pretty far reaching problem beyond video games.

Denaut, we do the exact same thing with RFP in the industry that I work for but we call it Request For Purchase and it's usually centered around us compiling a set of requirements that we put forth to our vendors to see a demonstration of products that might fit our requests. There is a fine line and quite a bit of faith going around and I think that's the biggest challenge between those that support this and those that don't. I don't disagree with you at all that it would be nice to see that document but I believe in Mark's case he's genuinely honest that this will be a living document to some degree. I understand we're not investors or publishers from the standpoint that we don't have a true stock or control over it but that's where the polarization between us lies. I believe Mark does have a vision on this and some of that vision is open to backer input. Oddly enough, if that IS in fact true then doesn't that increase the value of skeptical / thoughtful individuals like yourself and Ut to become backers so that you can question it and help shape it??