Camelot Unchained MMO

Grim1 · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
More like I am using his writings and ideas as a foil to explain what makes good design. It isn't a cat fight or hissy fit, I've never met the guy and I don't know him. If anything he has become a representative target for my frustration with the industry's contempt for the design profession, mostly because the contempt heaped upon people like him is deserved but it makes us all look bad. Mark and CU happen to be an excellent target because they currently very public and very flawed.

That's your opinion and your welcome to it. But MJ has delivered more content that I actually enjoyed than you have. So forgive me if I glaze over your rants.

Yes, MJ is far from perfect and neither was DAoC or WAR. But I spent more time in those two games than any other mmo except EQ. And I had a hell of a fun time. And as someone else listed, those games innovated many things that are now standard in many new mmos. So for all of your protestations otherwise MJ has a positive record to run with. You may not like the direction he is going but he has a better track record than you do.

CU may never see the light of day. And given the history of recent mmo's, it most likely will be a failure even if it does. But at least he is trying to build something that we want. You aren't.

Cinge · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
More like I am using his writings and ideas as a foil to explain what makes good design. It isn't a cat fight or hissy fit, I've never met the guy and I don't know him. If anything he has become a representative target for my frustration with the industry's contempt for the design profession, mostly because the contempt heaped upon people like him is deserved but it makes us all look bad. Mark and CU happen to be an excellent target because they currently very public and very flawed.

I personally will judge through games, not words. Anyone can talk, their games should provide their merit(and not specifically talking about this game or its so hated developer, though I did not mind War and had a fun few months there).

Blackyce · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
My brain isn't exploding, but keep in mind it is my profession and livelihood we are discussing, not necessarily just THIS game specifically. It would be strange is I wasn't passionate about it.

ZyyzYzzy · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
Well, essentially more money is put into these things because more money comes out of them. You'll never get me to argue that what I do is necessary or even all that important, but it is technical work. Just because it isn't important doesn't mean it isn't difficult or expensive. The general misallocation of resources in society is a pretty far reaching problem beyond video games.

Another question. Does everyone at a game studio have like 50k of tech sitting on their desks? I'm just trying to figure out where millions can go on a game project outside of salaries.

Really curious just because that Kick starter raised just about as much money as my lab uses yearly from a grant. I don't really see software and hardware in the game industry costing nearly as much as reagents or instruments in cell biology.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

pyksel_sl said:
Oddly enough, if that IS in fact true then doesn't that increase the value of skeptical / thoughtful individuals like yourself and Ut to become backers so that you can question it and help shape it??

I can only speak for myself, but I have no interest in trying to shape CU. I am in the extremely lucky position to have a direct hand in developing games, so I don't have to pay for the privilege for a chance to do so.

Grim1 · May 3, 2013

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:
Another question. Does everyone at a game studio have like 50k of tech sitting on their desks? I'm just trying to figure out where millions can go on a game project outside of salaries.

Really curious just because that Kick starter raised just about as much money as my lab uses yearly from a grant. I don't really see software and hardware in the game industry costing nearly as much as reagents or instruments in cell biology.

It may have changed, but one of the things I saw in my few years in the industry was an incredible amount of wasted effort and idle time. The companies I worked for (large and small) were extremely inefficient at managing workers imo. A lot of artist time was wasted twiddling their fingers while they waited for new builds. And a ton of time was wasted building useless show pieces for milestones that didn't make sense. Coming from an engineering background it was quite a culture shock.

That was years ago but my friends still in the industry still say it is pretty much the same.

As for the tech, it makes sense to have the latest tools to play with. Since games take so long to build you have to be somewhat ahead of the curve. Also rendering and compiling takes power, the more the better. A standard artist excuse back then for walking the halls or playing pinball was "my scene is rendering".

Denaut · May 3, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
That's your opinion and your welcome to it. But MJ has delivered more content that I actually enjoyed than you have. So forgive me if I glaze over your rants.

Yes, MJ is far from perfect and neither was DAoC or WAR. But I spent more time in those two games than any other mmo except EQ. And I had a hell of a fun time. And as someone else listed, those games innovated many things that are now standard in many new mmos. So for all of your protestations otherwise MJ has a positive record to run with. You may not like the direction he is going but he has a better track record than you do.

CU may never see the light of day. And given the history of recent mmo's, it most likely will be a failure even if it does. But at least he is trying to build something that we want. You aren't.

Perhaps, but not all "opinions" are created equal. You are welcome to glaze over my "rants", it is your choice to remain willfully ignorant of how good games are made, and be an uninformed consumer.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

cinge_sl said:
I personally will judge through games, not words. Anyone can talk, their games should provide their merit(and not specifically talking about this game or its so hated developer, though I did not mind War and had a fun few months there).

I ultimately agree, which is why I don't give money to KSers but will buy interesting but flawed indy games even if they aren't perfect. I appreciate effort instead of words.

But I am, to a pretty good extent, able to judge someone's skill as a designer and a leader through their words.

Pyksel · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
Perhaps, but not all "opinions" are created equal. You are welcome to glaze over my "rants", it is your choice to remain willfully ignorant of how good games are made, and be an uninformed consumer.

Care to share what games you've helped develop or are developing? I'd like to know if I've played them.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:
Another question. Does everyone at a game studio have like 50k of tech sitting on their desks? I'm just trying to figure out where millions can go on a game project outside of salaries.

Really curious just because that Kick starter raised just about as much money as my lab uses yearly from a grant. I don't really see software and hardware in the game industry costing nearly as much as reagents or instruments in cell biology.

It almost all goes to employee costs. The rough calculation for a studio is 11k per month per person to run a game studio in the US. The problem is management bloat, rushed pre-production, and ridiculous inefficiency. The blame can almost squarely be placed on the rushed pre-production and incompetent/blated management.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
It may have changed, but one of the things I saw in my few years in the industry was an incredible amount of wasted effort and idle time. The companies I worked for (large and small) were extremely inefficient at managing workers imo. A lot of artist time was wasted twiddling their fingers while they waited for new builds. And a ton of time was wasted building useless show pieces for milestones that didn't make sense. Coming from an engineering background it was quite a culture shock.

That was years ago but my friends still in the industry still say it is pretty much the same.

As for the tech, it makes sense to have the latest tools to play with. Since games take so long to build you have to be somewhat ahead of the curve. Also rendering and compiling takes power, the more the better. A standard artist excuse back then for walking the halls or playing pinball was "my scene is rendering".

Pretty much this.

Grim1 · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
Perhaps, but not all "opinions" are created equal. You are welcome to glaze over my "rants", it is your choice to remain willfully ignorant of how good games are made, and be an uninformed consumer.

You claim MJ sucks and yet he has delivered two very important games to the genre. Yes one failed but it still innovated and was a ton of fun for many more months than any other new mmo since. What have you done to back up your words?

Build something that matters and maybe I'll listen to your words. Action and results matter to me.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

pyksel_sl said:
Care to share what games you've helped develop or are developing? I'd like to know if I've played them.

The only one I am willing to cop to publicly on rerolled for now is Vanguard, which was my first industry job (and at the time quite a shock). Since then I've work on 3 other AAA projects and if you include live teams and expansions, and since moving to a small studio about 5 more projects not all of which have released.

Pyksel · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
It almost all goes to employee costs. The rough calculation for a studio is 11k per month per person to run a game studio in the US. The problem is management bloat, rushed pre-production, and ridiculous inefficiency. The blame can almost squarely be placed on the rushed pre-production and incompetent/blated management.

Interesting stat of 11k/month/person so if we take that number and apply it to this project: 10 people with an estimate 2 year dev time, we're looking at a studio calculation of $2.6 million right? So the $5 million that's been secured sounds like it will be enough to at least get it made. I realize that doesn't answer to the quality of it but if the average is correct then if they start asking for more money down the line we can probably deduce at that point that it's due to mismanagement.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
You claim MJ sucks and yet he has delivered two very important games to the genre. Yes one failed but it still innovated and was a ton of fun for many more months than any other new mmo since. What have you done to back up your words?

Build something that matters and maybe I'll listen to your words. Action and results matter to me.

I'vecovered that already

Utnayan · May 3, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
Considering the amount of time you and UT spend trashing a game that just got funded and is years away from release, I'm surprised you even have time to make coffee

.

And Draegan is disembling, nobody is whiteknighting devs here, and he knows it. We're all just laughing at the ridiculous spectacle of two people's brains exploding over something that isn't even in alpha yet.

You know, the time you spend critisizing dissenting opinions could be used in other matters as well. Or we could go on continuing about a piece of paper conjured out of thin air pinned on your hopes and dreams that will never come to realizatioon knowing you may as well just give your kickstarter funds to a Nigerian who will give you $600 in cash in advance. If there is any spectacle, it is laughing at you and a few others in here that think anything will come out of a has-been who got hammered one night and wrote some game ideas onto a bar napkin, then suckered you into backlogging his new house.

Denaut is in the business, has seen what it takes to ship, knows the retards in the business and at this point, if you take me out of it entirely, it sounds like you have someone/something to defend when a credible game designer comes on here and talks about the truth about what it takes to ship. What you are arguing for goes beyond common sense and into a train of thought that can easily be misconstrued as a shill/whiteknight.

You can always tell a shill, and you can always tell they work in the industry. Because they start their posts with a negative or positive and turn it around to talk about a negative like they are giving feedback at their meetings worrying about pissing off their boss. it's so blatantly obvious.

Carry on with cheering for that piece of paper nailed to a tree. Stare long enough and you may just finally give up and walk away like anyone that isn't a blind fanboy or co-worker would know to do at this point.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

pyksel_sl said:
Interesting stat of 11k/month/person so if we take that number and apply it to this project: 10 people with an estimate 2 year dev time, we're looking at a studio calculation of $2.6 million right?

Assuming the team size and time-frame remain consistent then that is a good ballpark. Small teams, small being about "tribe" size so up to about 25 people are extremely efficient. That efficiency comes at the cost of time though, the projects cost less overall but take longer to make. Publishers aren't known for their patience, they usually try to replace time with money and that is when the problems start.

I think City-State is 15 people though, which brings out closer to 4 million for the 2 years.

Grim1 · May 3, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
I'vecovered that already

Those are very valid points. But you also make my case for me. Especially the team aspect. So it really doesn't make sense to pan the game this early in it's development. Since we won't know until at least alpha if MJ is screwing the pooch or not.

Anyways, enough back and forth for me. Alpha is at least a year away or more.

Grim1 · May 3, 2013

Utnayan_sl said:
You know, the time you spend critisizing dissenting opinions could be used in other matters as well. Or we could go on continuing about a piece of paper conjured out of thin air pinned on your hopes and dreams that will never come to realizatioon knowing you may as well just give your kickstarter funds to a Nigerian who will give you $600 in cash in advance. If there is any spectacle, it is laughing at you and a few others in here that think anything will come out of a has-been who got hammered one night and wrote some game ideas onto a bar napkin, then suckered you into backlogging his new house.

Denaut is in the business, has seen what it takes to ship, knows the retards in the business and at this point, if you take me out of it entirely, it sounds like you have someone/something to defend when a credible game designer comes on here and talks about the truth about what it takes to ship. What you are arguing for goes beyond common sense and into a train of thought that can easily be misconstrued as a shill/whiteknight.

You can always tell a shill, and you can always tell they work in the industry. Because they start their posts with a negative or positive and turn it around to talk about a negative like they are giving feedback at their meetings worrying about pissing off their boss. it's so blatantly obvious.

Carry on with cheering for that piece of paper nailed to a tree. Stare long enough and you may just finally give up and walk away like anyone that isn't a blind fanboy or co-worker would know to do at this point.

LOL wait, did you just call me a shill? I haven't worked in the industry for years (late 90's). The pay sucks and the hours are too long. Don't know anyone working on mmo's. And I sure as hell don't know anyone involved with CU.

And all I have done is laugh at you screaming at the "piece of paper nailed to the tree". At least you finally admit that that is all it is.

Denaut · May 3, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
Those are very valid points. But you also make my case for me. Especially the team aspect. So it really doesn't make sense to pan the game this early in it's development. Since we won't know until at least alpha if MJ is screwing the pooch or not.

Anyways, enough back and forth for me. Alpha is at least a year away or more.

Ultimately we are both making a forecast, but I don't need an Alpha to predict major problems based on Mark's ability to design and communicate. Would an Alpha help that prediction? Sure, but I am pretty confident (maybe unduly so) even without it.

Camelot Unchained MMO

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