Company Raises It's Minimum Wage to $70,000 and All Hell Breaks Loose

Mist · Aug 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
I mean, ok, have the CBO run this but I'm thinking it'll cost like 5 trillion dollars a year.

Would it? Even if you tripled the food stamp budget, that's only about 220 billion, lets call it 250 billion. That sounds like a lot, but out of 3.8 trillion a year, it's certainly not a back breaker.

We know from empirical evidence, everywhere it's been tried, that ending homelessness and universal preschool are both net positives once you factor in the costs they negate.

The public worker program probably costs less than our current public sector jobs, federal, state and local.

We spend plenty on education, we just get shitty results. This is a question of spending money better, not necessarily spending more money.

Healthcare is still a budget breaker but it's already a budget breaker. Fixes to healthcare will come from stopping all the expensive, unnecessary tests that doctors love to charge your health insurance for. And the ridiculously expensive end-of-life measures that achieve very very little.

I don't think this plan is ultimately all that expensive.

Khane · Aug 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
I mean, ok, have the CBO run this but I'm thinking it'll cost like 5 trillion dollars a year.

I think I'd rather nuke the health care system from orbit, implement single payer, cut all defense spending by 50%, use the savings from single payer + defense to implement 500 billion a year science education funding and scientific research with our 10 million new scientists each year and triple NASA's budget, and see what that does.

But sure, lets get homeless people apartments. Absolutely.

Hey man, I like what you're selling. The problem is this country, and it's new generation of entrepreneurs, aren't interested in making anything anymore. We are "service" oriented now. We'd rather rake in millions selling bullshit.

The government should just start using kickstarter.

Cad · Aug 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Would it? Even if you tripled the food stamp budget, that's only about 220 billion, lets call it 250 billion. That sounds like a lot, but out of 3.8 trillion a year, it's certainly not a back breaker.

We know from empirical evidence, everywhere it's been tried, that ending homelessness and universal preschool are both net positives once you factor in the costs they negate.

I think your apartments4all program would cost 200 billion just in administration. Nevermind the lawsuits from the discriminatory housing practices that would surely result. I think I'd rather just give out checks. My mom works for the govt, she doesn't wake up and take a shit without going through 8 layers of bureaucracy first.

Mist_sl said:
The public worker program probably costs less than our current public sector jobs, federal, state and local.

Uhh sure... but have you seen what is involved in getting a govt contract these days? Uber for workers? Gotta be kidding.

Mist_sl said:
We spend plenty on education, we just get shitty results. This is a question of spending money better, not necessarily spending more money.

Need to have federal magnet schools and funding to make them full boarding schools. Employ both teachers and counselors and life activity directors that can keep the kids occupied on a comprehensive program. This shit ain't cheap, but it will turn out the next intelligentsia overclass. If you want to stop kids like mine from ruling everything since they are going to get the best schools/tutors/environments since I can buy it, you should be all for this.

Mist_sl said:
Healthcare is still a budget breaker but it's already a budget breaker. Fixes to healthcare will come from stopping all the expensive, unnecessary tests that doctors love to charge your health insurance for. And the ridiculously expensive end-of-life measures that achieve very very little.

Single payer is really the only way to go. Health care is an absolutely essential service that should be provided to all, and not with a profit motive. It also happens to be cheaper. It's a win/win.

Mist · Aug 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
I think your apartments4all program would cost 200 billion just in administration. Nevermind the lawsuits from the discriminatory housing practices that would surely result. I think I'd rather just give out checks. My mom works for the govt, she doesn't wake up and take a shit without going through 8 layers of bureaucracy first.

Well, you don't do it on the federal level unless you have to. Cities have done it, and come out ahead. The federal government is fucked, it's bad at this kind of shit.

Cad_sl said:
Uhh sure... but have you seen what is involved in getting a govt contract these days? Uber for workers? Gotta be kidding.

Again, the federal government is fucked. Have the federal government pay cities and states to create their own systems. It doesn't need to be a massive federal database, frankly it works better if it isn't. This isn't for massive projects, this is for

Cad_sl said:
Need to have federal magnet schools and funding to make them full boarding schools. Employ both teachers and counselors and life activity directors that can keep the kids occupied on a comprehensive program. This shit ain't cheap, but it will turn out the next intelligentsia overclass. If you want to stop kids like mine from ruling everything since they are going to get the best schools/tutors/environments since I can buy it, you should be all for this.

Federal schools? I'd rather not. The conservative model of charter schools works best here, as long as the schools aren't actually being run by conservatives. Conservatives probably have the right idea on the financials of how to make a good education system, but on the actual educating, fuck that. Seriously, fuck that. Federal schools would operate at the whim of whatever party holds the executive, that's a recipe for disaster.

The whole basis of these ideas is that, everywhere it's been tried in good faith (ie: not half-assed/corrupt) we have empirical evidence that building a better society costs less money in the long run than ameliorating the consequences of having a shitty society. You guys are always yelling for facts over feels, but it's always FEELS that stops progress, white people who don't want to help 'those people.' The numbers pretty much never work out in favor of maintaining a broken system.

Palum · Aug 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Obviously I was being hyperbolic about school loans and just used you as a prop. Good job coming out with no debt, seriously. Didn't mean to insinuate your loan situation.

Cad where did the hyperbola touch you?

Cad · Aug 18, 2015

Palum_sl said:
Cad where did the hyperbola touch you?

You want to go look up the definition of that word son?

Palum · Aug 19, 2015

Cad_sl said:
You want to go look up the definition of that word son?

Facts are irrelevant, I feel like the mathematical definition is more correct.

The Ancient_sl · Aug 19, 2015

Cad_sl said:
You want to go look up the definition of that word son?

hy?per?bol?ic
?hip?r'b?lik/
adjective
adjective: hyperbolic

1.
of or relating to a hyperbola.

Cad · Aug 19, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Well, you don't do it on the federal level unless you have to. Cities have done it, and come out ahead. The federal government is fucked, it's bad at this kind of shit.

Again, the federal government is fucked. Have the federal government pay cities and states to create their own systems. It doesn't need to be a massive federal database, frankly it works better if it isn't. This isn't for massive projects, this is for

Federal schools? I'd rather not. The conservative model of charter schools works best here, as long as the schools aren't actually being run by conservatives. Conservatives probably have the right idea on the financials of how to make a good education system, but on the actual educating, fuck that. Seriously, fuck that. Federal schools would operate at the whim of whatever party holds the executive, that's a recipe for disaster.

All you're saying here is the Federal govt is fucked. It is and it isn't, it's fucked because it's too big and too complex and the weight of administration makes everything cost too much and be too cumbersome. But on the other hand, the reason they have all that administration is because they actually follow the (sometimes insane) rules. State governments tend to take shortcuts.

I'd prefer to do these things on the federal level where they belong, and just streamline the agencies in charge of it and fix the process rather than throw up our hands say the process is fucked and have 50 versions of this thing, all of which suck.

Mist_sl said:
The whole basis of these ideas is that, everywhere it's been tried in good faith (ie: not half-assed/corrupt) we have empirical evidence that building a better society costs less money in the long run than ameliorating the consequences of having a shitty society. You guys are always yelling for facts over feels, but it's always FEELS that stops progress, white people who don't want to help 'those people.' The numbers pretty much never work out in favor of maintaining a broken system.

Okay, facts over feels: which majority black large cities in America are working?

I think a lot of people agree with your build a better society idea but some people's idea of building a better society is removing certain people from it. I'm all for building a better society in America I just haven't seen it work yet; point me out some examples.

BrutulTM · Aug 19, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Okay, facts over feels: which majority black large cities in America are working?

I think a lot of people agree with your build a better society idea but some people's idea of building a better society is removing certain people from it. I'm all for building a better society in America I just haven't seen it work yet; point me out some examples.

Take a look at an Indian reservation if you want to see the results of the government "taking care" of everyone in a community. Rampant alcoholism, rampant unemployment, rampant crime, houses that look like garbage dumps, dogs and children running around feral. Providing for the needs of poor people seems like kindness but it destroys people. It's just bad for your soul to get up every morning and feel like you're going to be taken care of whether you work or not.

The Ancient_sl · Aug 19, 2015

Cad_sl said:
All you're saying here is the Federal govt is fucked. It is and it isn't, it's fucked because it's too big and too complex and the weight of administration makes everything cost too much and be too cumbersome. But on the other hand, the reason they have all that administration is because they actually follow the (sometimes insane) rules. State governments tend to take shortcuts.

I'd prefer to do these things on the federal level where they belong, and just streamline the agencies in charge of it and fix the process rather than throw up our hands say the process is fucked and have 50 versions of this thing, all of which suck.

^

I find people who bitch about the federal government and praise state and local governments hilarious. Do you ever even deal with state and local governments? Change your name at the Social Security office and then do it at the DMV. See which one runs smoother. Federal corruption and nepotism pales in comparison to that of the state and municipal level where there is much less scrutiny.

BrutulTM_sl said:
Take a look at an Indian reservation if you want to see the results of the government "taking care" of everyone in a community. Rampant alcoholism, rampant unemployment, rampant crime, houses that look like garbage dumps, dogs and children running around feral. Providing for the needs of poor people seems like kindness but it destroys people. It's just bad for your soul to get up every morning and feel like you're going to be taken care of whether you work or not.

I don't really like welfare either, but I think you are conflating two different things here.

moontayle · Aug 19, 2015

It's a similar plight but from different angles. These days however, there's a fair amount of NA nations doling out their own form of welfare because of those sweet sweet gambling moneys. That ain't happening in ghettos.

Funny side story, the Seneca Nation up here bought some land just outside Downtown Buffalo and claimed it as their land, and started building a casino. Buffalo fought for years against it but in the end they couldn't do shit.

The Ancient_sl · Aug 19, 2015

They can just buy territory and treat is like a reservation?

Cad · Aug 19, 2015

The Ancient_sl said:
They can just buy territory and treat is like a reservation?

I'm going to speculate there's more to it than he laid out in his story.

Tenks · Aug 19, 2015

I think an issue is some people are just not cut out for college. So we need jobs for workers who are not college material. (Sidenote: I'm putting people who get worthless college degrees in the not cut out for college bucket)

The problem is there can only be so many skilled laborer jobs. We don't need everyone becoming an electrician or plumber. But we've shifted so far to being white collar that the blue collar jobs are pretty slim. The idea of working in a factory is not really how America works anymore. Possibly that is a good thing or possibly it is a bad thing. I'm not sure. But if you really want to bring labor jobs back to America don't start looking up at the US government to fix it for you. Work with how the government is set up. Purchase MiUSA items when possible. Want more good paying low-skill jobs in America? Bring back the factories with your own paycheck. Stop thinking the government needs to step in with all these heavy handed laws and reforms.

BrutulTM · Aug 19, 2015

There's a pretty big shortage of people in the skilled trades right now and it will get worse as more than half of them are over 45 now. The only thing worse is agriculture. I think the average age of farmers and ranchers right now is like 55.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/201...-workers-ages/

It would be good to get some manufacturing jobs back in the US though.

moontayle · Aug 19, 2015

I wasn't here when it happened. Found thisrather lengthy articlethat was printed around the time they were demolishing the buildings on the land. From my skimming of the article it appears Gov. Pataki pushed throughloophole legislationwhich allowed him to sell land to the Senecas and "jump start" the economy post-9/11. This was in direct conflict to a federal law concerning land acquired by a Nation after 1988.

...failure of federal officials and agencies to comply with laws that govern the federal approval process for gambling activities on Indian lands acquired after 1988...

The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (1988) controls casinos on Indian land. It prohibits casinos on land acquired after October 17, 1988, but allows them on land acquired through land-claim settlements. This, the casino opponents say, is where Norton went wrong: the land the Senecas bought in downtown Buffalo was a straight purchase from developer Carl Paladino; it wasn't acquired though a land claim settlement and it doesn't qualify for any of the exceptions to that requirement. Therefore, they claim, it is ineligible to have a casino.

They fought ithereand in suit "CAGCEC v. Norton", but Buffalo has been Detroit-lite since the steel industry left (and is now starting to turn around) so there was a lot of shady shit going on to get this casino in place.

And now, back to arguing about wages.

Fifey · Aug 19, 2015

Tenks_sl said:
I think an issue is some people are just not cut out for college. So we need jobs for workers who are not college material. (Sidenote: I'm putting people who get worthless college degrees in the not cut out for college bucket)

I knew I wasn't cut out for college, I grew up very poor and white with zero interest in sports or schooling general, so instead of bitching about how unfair life was, I started working and worked myself(along with my cis white penis) into a decent paying job.

It's insanely difficult to get helpers/apprentices currently, two guys in my shop have been looking for a while but every shop help we hire is afraid of getting their hands dirty or sweating.

Tenks · Aug 19, 2015

If I didn't have an unhealthy passion for programming coming out of high school I'm not sure where I would have landed. I was also pretty damn good at physics and chemistry but neither of those pay as well as computer science. I thought for a while about doing vocational school because it seemed like a really good living but ultimately I went to college for CS. I think the problem is having a HS degree and not a college degree is seen as some stigma. Every kid is told they have to go to college to make it. And that just plain isn't true. You can go to vocation school and make a damn fine living. A damn fine one. Probably better than 80% of the people graduating college.

But to circle back now if we tell all these kids if they don't have a passion for an employable college degree to go to vocation school we may be filled to the brim with pipe fitters and electricians. It would be another resurgence of guidance consolers in my generation that basically said "Oh you don't actually have any skills in math/science but want an actual career? I know ... Nursing!" and all of a sudden we have a billion nurses in the industry. So if the country is pretty self sufficient where we bring back more manufacturing jobs we'd have products made domestically and sold domestically keeping all the dollars domestic. But biggest issue is MiUSA items would probably be about 3x the cost of items currently made overseas. And right now we have a culture of buy -> throw away -> buy instead of buy -> repair -> keep.

Khane · Aug 19, 2015

Tenks_sl said:
If I didn't have an unhealthy passion for programming coming out of high school I'm not sure where I would have landed. I was also pretty damn good at physics and chemistry but neither of those pay as well as computer science. I thought for a while about doing vocational school because it seemed like a really good living but ultimately I went to college for CS. I think the problem is having a HS degree and not a college degree is seen as some stigma. Every kid is told they have to go to college to make it. And that just plain isn't true. You can go to vocation school and make a damn fine living. A damn fine one. Probably better than 80% of the people graduating college.

But to circle back now if we tell all these kids if they don't have a passion for an employable college degree to go to vocation school we may be filled to the brim with pipe fitters and electricians. It would be another resurgence of guidance consolers in my generation that basically said "Oh you don't actually have any skills in math/science but want an actual career? I know ... Nursing!" and all of a sudden we have a billion nurses in the industry. So if the country is pretty self sufficient where we bring back more manufacturing jobs we'd have products made domestically and sold domestically keeping all the dollars domestic. But biggest issue is MiUSA items would probably be about 3x the cost of items currently made overseas. And right now we have a culture of buy -> throw away -> buy instead of buy -> repair -> keep.

I understand what you're saying here but just want to point out, Nursing is still in high demand and, at least in this area of the country, I've never heard of a Nurse not being able to find work.

My last job employed full time Nurses in various specialties as well as just regular old RN's and they were constantly looking because it was hard finding one that was willing to work for the lower wages we paid. They were constantly leaving for better opportunities.

Company Raises It's Minimum Wage to $70,000 and All Hell Breaks Loose

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