Depression

Izo_sl said:

So by that logic, one might as well take an economics class, because, hey, I'm better with numbers? Or take a job, because, hey, I'd have a downpayment for my house?

How precisely does exercise benefit the depressed in treatment with pharma + cognitive therapy?

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I'm not even sure what you're arguing. It can help with some cases or at least been anecdotally shown to. It's also good for health, where exactly is the argument? I even stated it was pointless for me as far as alleviating symptoms and wasn't really an option anyway as it increased anxiety. I don't want to discount it as an effective tactic for some but it's no magic bullet and a lot of people love to think that it's the missing link to treatment. You're pretty much throwing shit against a wall with drugs anyway and exercise and cognitive therapy are pretty much even in terms of risk to health which is about zero.

Some of you guys must be being purposely obtuse. Obviously, if you have severe clinical depression you should be seeking professional help as opposed to PM'ing Eidal about health/fitness. If you're just down about yourself and can't really figure out why, then that is more what I'm talking about. I've seen a good workout/nutrition plan do wonders for many people's self-esteem and health (both physical and mental).

I was offering to correspond in private channels with someone who might be interested in getting started but doesn't really know where to begin. I've been through it before and I've also coached others through the novice stages -- plus, having a long-distance workout buddy is more fun than having no one at all.

Does that make more sense?

Warmuth_sl said:

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. It can help with some cases or at least been anecdotally shown to. It's also good for health, where exactly is the argument? I even stated it was pointless for me as far as alleviating symptoms and wasn't really an option anyway as it increased anxiety. I don't want to discount it as an effective tactic for some but it's no magic bullet and a lot of people love to think that it's the missing link to treatment. You're pretty much throwing shit against a wall with drugs anyway and exercise and cognitive therapy are pretty much even in terms of risk to health which is about zero.

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I'm trying to get you to elaborate on your perspective. I find it puzzling you'd recommend exercise if you found it to exacerbate your anxieties - 'doesn't hurt'. As for anectdotes, well, they're the lowest form of evidense. I provided an RCT speaking against exercise having an effect in a clinical relevant setting.

I think people conflate alleged direct effects of exercise with indirect effects on the comorbidites related to depression. No shame in that - any evidence based GP would recommend exercise on that basis alone.

Eidal_sl said:

Some of you guys must be being purposely obtuse. Obviously, if you have severe clinical depression you should be seeking professional help as opposed to PM'ing Eidal about health/fitness. If you're just down about yourself and can't really figure out why, then that is more what I'm talking about. I've seen a good workout/nutrition plan do wonders for many people's self-esteem and health (both physical and mental).

I was offering to correspond in private channels with someone who might be interested in getting started but doesn't really know where to begin. I've been through it before and I've also coached others through the novice stages -- plus, having a long-distance workout buddy is more fun than having no one at all.

Does that make more sense?

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The trigger was this:

Eidal_sl said:

...Scientists don't lie, your body responds favorably with chemicals from a good workout plan.

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Thanks for clarifying. Can I ask what you mean by chemicals, favorable responses and scientists?

Exercise is known to release dopamine.

However, when a majority of depression cases appear to be serotonin/norepinephrin/things-other-than-dopamine disorders (trying to find the reference I saw on this), raising dopamine levels makes little difference at best.

Yea, that's what I meant. I didn't mean to rustle the jimmies of any real scientists here. My thought process:

1) Exercise and eating well makes me feel good.
2) Other people that exercise and eat well claim that they feel good, too.
3) Someone that wants to feel good should try eating well and exercising.

Shrug.

Talking to my PCP and my therapist, they almost think I went through the equivalent of chemical shock therapy. Not the recommended route for treatment, and not a cure, but fuck... I'm happy. I really am. I don't know how to say it better.

My home situation was fucked up....a lot. Emotional and physical abuse big time. My dad was a controlling selfish alcoholic who cheated on my mom. She in turn took her frustration out on me. Not an awesome situation. He left 3 days after Christmas my sophomore year in college. He tried to be all like 'oh well I stayed all those years for you guys (the kids)' - bullshit dude where the fuck were you? Oh right. On the golf course or drinking. I remember begging him to come to shit. Couldn't be bothered. Showed up shitfaced and 3 hours late to get started on travelling for family vacations. Reality is the dude cannot deal with being told what to do. So that's why he didn't leave when we were younger - he would have had to comply with support orders etc. (My sister was 17 at the time he left). I mean on DUI....3? He had to be held back in the courtroom from punching his own lawyer. Like in front of the judge. Fucktard. (DUI 4 was a hit and run two weeks before he walked out - and even though he had already rented an apartment elsewhere dude still had the balls to call my mom to come pick his ass up).

Anyways unsurprisingly he said the same shit. About how she was manipulative brought up alienation of affection etc. Dude you didn't give a damn about what happened when you were here let alone after you left. Like if you make that argument you necessarily assume that you raised a fucking idiot who can't see through the bullshit. Though my relationship with my mom was in shambles I at least knew she would always be there. It was a long road butshewas willing to work on it. Consequently so was I. With my dad....it was only ever about him. And one day I woke the fuck up and realized that not only would he never change (which I did a long time before that), but that I wasn't a shitty person for kicking him out of my life....it was like one of the most liberating experiences ever. I had given him plenty of warning he was a hair away from losing me and he just didn't give a shit - everything was about winning and I'm like dude it's over.

Was 2 days before father's day 2006. Last day I talked, and will ever communicate with my father. He hasn't met my husband, he wasn't invited to the wedding, he will never know my kids. Best.decision.ever. It wasn't a decision made out of anger - in fact I finally could let the damn anger go. He tracked down my address in Virginia and would send cards occasionally with stuff like call me blah blah blah. Just got thrown away. We moved in July - I am assuming shit will start up again soon around the time xmas comes and whatever crap he sends is returned to sender (though it would be awesome if the new owner of our old house just throws the shit away).

Now being a parent I look at his behavior and it just reinforces my decision. You only have such a short fucking time with your kids. How the hell do you just only care about doing you? Not that doing you isn't important to your health but like ONLY doing you? And if my kid wasn't talking to me you better believe I'd be doing more to fix shit than sending a couple cards a year (realistically at this point there's nothing he can do anyways but I'm illustrating a point here). The divorce was awful (the research about divorces being harder on adult kids I can say anecdotally is 100% true) - I was in the middle all the time I was trying to go to college 3.5 hours away but be crisis counselor for my entire family....but yeah I was the one who encouraged my mom to file. He just wanted to stay in limbo. Not get counseling not try and fix things - he just wanted to avoid spousal support other than what he thought he should pay. So yep. Kids figure it out.



My college roommate's wife left him a couple months ago. Serves him right really. He started sleeping with her when she was still married to a dude serving in Iraq. Anyways she's still a whore and posting pics of herself, new guy and their toddler on facebook like all over the place and my best friend and I were talking about it and I realized.....exactly what you said. No matter how mad I can possibly fathom being at my husband......I can't imagine doing anything to try and get back my husband (like her posting those pics) because really all I'd be doing is hurting my kid. Obviously I wouldn't be a doormat and would protect myself so I could be in the best position to take care of my kids but like people who try and get sole custody with zero history of other parent behaving badly in re their kids? What the fuck are you doing? Like that's not about the kid that's about you. And yes I would miss my kids .....I can't even imagine how awful it would be to go to bed at night with my son not in the other room. We've had very few nights out since he's been born not due to lack of baby sitters or opportunity...but because I love being around him. But at the end of the day I am never going to take Daddy away because he needs Daddy too. Mommy and Daddy may not have worked out for some reason (if there was a safety issue ie drugs or not making good choices like parading a bunch of women through that's something else - but if he left me for someone else as in one person as long as she wasn't a psycho ok) but that doesn't mean Daddy and him are broken.

That's not just psychopharm, that's many drugs. There're several drugs in my drugbook that say, "Drug mechanism unknown," /shrug

Kuriin_sl said:

That's not just psychopharm, that's many drugs. There're several drugs in my drugbook that say, "Drug mechanism unknown," /shrug

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Yeah, heh. Look up paracetamol

Been in therapy for four weeks now and I know that it gets worse before it gets better but like... this is way worse. It is taking over my life right now. I am so overwhelmed with it all that I break down crying randomly during the day for no reason other than it just feels like too much. I'd really like to know when it starts to get better. This really sucks.

Have you been put on happy pills yet? It's not a solution per se, but, for me anyways, I've found it really helps. I was resistant to the idea of drugs for years, but I finally got to the point where I said, fuck it, I'll try anything. It's amazing the effect it's had on even the way I think, you know?

I'd prefer not to use drugs if I can. I took anti depressants and anti anxiety meds when I was like 19 and they did nothing for me so I'm not keen on using them again. I'd like to try sticking with cognitive therapy if possible.

Now that may change if this shit keeps up, who knows.

I'll tell you what the happy pills really do - they make that bottomless pit feel only a few meters deep. They let you talk about your problems without becoming too overwhelmed with it all to speak. They protect you from the worst of it. They keep those goddamn panic attacks away. That said, I dread just talking to my doctor once a month as it is.

If you're really lucky, they make you happy. But I haven't seen it.

It's kinda weird. The anhedonia is gone, but... it's almost making things worse. Well, not worse, but I'm feeling shit for the first time in forever, and it's not all good feelings. Before, when I was feeling bad, it would just be super flat. Now, I actually feelbadwhen I'm not in a good mood.

I will still take it though, as opposed to never feeling anything, though. And even though I'm not happy all the time, that Icanfeel happy is enough right now

Thanks aaron. I think what you're talking about is cognitive behavioral therapy which is what I am doing right now.

And I am actually already doing yoga twice a week. Started about a month ago when I decided it was finally time to get myself better. Definitely a nice relaxing hour, plus my two year old loves going to the playroom at the gym so it has been good. I might be able to give meditation a try, but I rarely have any quiet it my house with everything going on so not sure how well that would work. Thank you for the suggestions though.

So I'm moving out in 4 days - my wife sends me an email listing out all my belongings that I'll be taking when I go right? Um yeah sure. I got slightly less than a month's notice, you're keeping pretty much all the cash and assets, but sure, I got a place ready to go np! I can't believe she actually thought it would be this easy to just leave. And my son's in daycare, and I'm seriously temped to pull him out the next two days and call in sick, because starting next week I'll likely only see him for a few hours on the weekends. Yes, I know others have it worse, but I really don't care right now. Yeah maybe I'm whining, I don't care about that either. My son is almost 2 years old, and in that entire time I've not seen him for 4 days. It's like it's hitting me today that I'm actually leaving. I keep waiting for someone to walk up and be like "haha it's not real! got ya!" The whole thing just seems unreal and I'm having a really hard day. I can't wait for my son to come home.

Well, usually don't like getting involved in stuff like this - and normally don't consider myself someone subject to depression - but got hit by a whammy today.

Today's my birthday - but after just seeing my father 6-7 weeks ago visiting to kill a few days while the movers got down here and him seeming to be in great PHYSICAL shape (his mental and neurologic were terrible though) just got the news today, on my birthday of all days, that he just passed away - completely taking me by surprise, I'm usually good at bracing/anticipating things - but I would've sworn he had years left, not weeks.

I know the impact of it is going to diminish in time, but... the problem I'm seeing is with the coincidence in timing, does anyone have any suggestions how to not make the association influence the birthdays I'll have for the rest of my life?