Diablo 4 / IV / IIII / Fore / Cope / Seethe

Cinge · Mar 31, 2023

jayrebb said:
Debatable. That'd assume the rewards aren't important or wanted. Players decide what systems are going to be important to them.

It should go without saying PvP was the "endgame" in D2 for many people. Not Baal runs. Hiding behind "PvP is optional" doesn't hold if the rewards may be valuable. Opt out of valuable rewards?

That's not even getting into the tremendous pressure being applied to Blizzard right now to make Fields open PvP. The lobby for that is quite large.

Not to agree with dumb excuses, but I do this regularly. Just dont bother with pvp in most games(as the balance is usually horrid) and thus I don't even get a chance at the rewards. I leave my PVP to shooters, where its actually fun and reasonably balanced. Hell I play a MMO atm that is mostly pvp end game(node wars and territory control, with some amazing benefits) and I dont even bother with it and play the rest of the game.

Fyff · Mar 31, 2023

TJT said:
So you are fine with people buying power to get to the end quicker? That is your take?

I have no issue at all with purchasing power in a PvE game. If people are that dumb that's on them. I do not measure my personal enjoyment by what someone else has.

jayrebb · Mar 31, 2023

In the same way that Blizzard twisted the definition of pay2win, shills are now prepared to redefine PvE game on their own terms.

Cinge · Mar 31, 2023

jayrebb said:
In the same way that Blizzard twisted the definition of pay2win, shills are now prepared to redefine PvE game on their own terms.

You give blizzard too much credit.

Penance · Mar 31, 2023

Fyff said:
I have no issue at all with purchasing power in a PvE game. If people are that dumb that's on them. I do not not measure my personal enjoyment by what someone else has.

Ok but you do see how there are now two paths of progression and one will inherently feel worse now. Progression and the feeling of power increase is why everyone, who's not some RPing behind the goldshire weirdo, play RPGs in the first place, especially ARPGs. If they release a p2progress model then naturally they will have to balance around that and the f2p model suffers for it. Every. Single. Time. Sure you can grind it out but then you think to yourself why waste time on a company that obviously doesn't value my time.

Fuck that shit.

AladainAF · Mar 31, 2023

Cinge said:
But those seem to be going by the wayside as these companies get more and more greedy.

You wont like this but what you should have said was:

But those seem to be going by the wayside as gamers continue to just pay for whatever's thrown in their face.

People shit ALL over that unity guy for saying game companies "are fucking stupid" for not flooding their games full of MTX and he's absolutely correct. Gamers have proven they will pay for it. Why wouldn't you do it?

It's not company greed at all. It's the fact they are simply providing what the masses are willing to pay for. Gamers are voting with their wallets.

Cinge · Mar 31, 2023

AladainAF said:
You wont like this but what you should have said was:

But those seem to be going by the wayside as gamers continue to just pay for whatever's thrown in their face.

People shit ALL over that unity guy for saying game companies "are fucking stupid" for not flooding their games full of MTX and he's absolutely correct. Gamers have proven they will pay for it. Why wouldn't you do it?

It's not company greed at all. It's the fact they are simply providing what the masses are willing to pay for. Gamers are voting with their wallets.

Not sure why I wouldn't like it. It's true. If the players didn't actually buy the stuff in a store or passes, they would eventually go away. But there's always going to be people with plenty of expendable money and plenty of just stupid people. There's a reason gambling has been around for as long as it has. Part of the Human condition. People wasting money on frivolous things extends far beyond gaming.

It's basically a mix of both. Players buying and companies scratching every little bit they can out of a product.

And as much as I want to blame only corporate culture(with over priced CEOs, executives and board members) to do as much as they can to increase stock price. That want/need to drive stocks up is shared from the top(executives and hedge funds) all the way to bottom(401k's and single self investors). Everyone wants more, there's very few that will turn down more. Again its a human condition.

It's an endless circle. What came first, the chicken or the egg.

In the end, all you can do is worry about you, unless you are trying to change the world or something. So when it comes to gaming, is it worth your money and your time and let your worries stop there.

Argarth · Mar 31, 2023

AladainAF said:
You wont like this but what you should have said was:

But those seem to be going by the wayside as gamers continue to just pay for whatever's thrown in their face.

People shit ALL over that unity guy for saying game companies "are fucking stupid" for not flooding their games full of MTX and he's absolutely correct. Gamers have proven they will pay for it. Why wouldn't you do it?

It's not company greed at all. It's the fact they are simply providing what the masses are willing to pay for. Gamers are voting with their wallets.

Oh come on.

D4 isn't some Indie Unity game (or on mobile) that's going to make some sweaty devs a bunch of cash quickly, and then vanish from memory just as quickly.

Aside from being Diablo ffs, the business model is completely different, and the messaging has been consistent since mid last year when they really started talking. You also have to believe that the current D4 business model is going to fail. Does anyone seriously believe that? Based on the reception of the Beta alone, it's going to be a massive record-breaking hit.

Also, based on the example I gave for my time in Marvel Heroes, I was "effectively" paying a $10/month sub for that game. If I have as much fun in D4 as I did there, I'll happily do the same.
Just as long as player power remains completely off the table, and must be earned by playing the game.

However, granted, some Exec could wander into a meeting 6 months after release (I don't believe this for a second) and say something like "Guuuuys, D4 is going gangbusters, so congrats on that, but we're still not seeing the revenues we want. Better start bolting on all those juicy P2W options just like we did with DI. Get to it!!"

If that happens, they might as well take the goose out the back and shoot it, because it ain't laying any more eggs. And I'll never darken another Blizzard thread as long as I live.

AladainAF · Mar 31, 2023

Argarth said:
Oh come on.

D4 isn't some Indie Unity game (or on mobile) that's going to make some sweaty devs a bunch of cash quickly, and then vanish from memory just as quickly.

Aside from being Diablo ffs, the business model is completely different, and the messaging has been consistent since mid last year when they really started talking. You also have to believe that the current D4 business model is going to fail. Does anyone seriously believe that? Based on the reception of the Beta alone, it's going to be a massive record-breaking hit.

Also, based on the example I gave for my time in Marvel Heroes, I was "effectively" paying a $10/month sub for that game. If I have as much fun in D4 as I did there, I'll happily do the same.
Just as long as player power remains completely off the table, and must be earned by playing the game.

However, granted, some Exec could wander into a meeting 6 months after release (I don't believe this for a second) and say something like "Guuuuys, D4 is going gangbusters, so congrats on that, but we're still not seeing the revenues we want. Better start bolting on all those juicy P2W options just like we did with DI. Get to it!!"

If that happens, they might as well take the goose out the back and shoot it, because it ain't laying any more eggs. And I'll never darken another Blizzard thread as long as I live.

Yeah, that messaging. Remember this?

"In Diablo Immortal, there is no way to acquire or rank up gear using money."

Then when he was called out after release:

"First, I apologize to anybody who wasn't sure if they wanted to play Diablo Immortal before the game launched, read this post, took my message to mean there was no way to make purchases to advance the power of your character, and then felt deceived."

So yeah. This is how they message. He defended the fact that legendary gems were "not gear".

Diablo 4 is going to do fine, but let's not pretend ourselves that Blizzard isn't going to attempt to bleed every single penny out of gamers humanly possible. And you bet they are going to do that via player power. I'll be legitimately surprised (and pleasantly so) if they truly limit everything "purchasable" to strictly cosmetics and nothing more.

Argarth · Mar 31, 2023

AladainAF said:
Diablo 4 is going to do fine, but let's not pretend ourselves that Blizzard isn't going to attempt to bleed every single penny out of gamers humanly possible. And you bet they are going to do that via player power. I'll be legitimately surprised (and pleasantly so) if they truly limit everything "purchasable" to strictly cosmetics and nothing more.

This reposting/rehashing of shit some DI drone(s) said in the past is so fucking tiresome, and has absolutely nothing to do with D4, it's business model, or the game's design.
Yeah I get it, Blizzard bad, will always be bad, can't ever doing anything but bad, even if not right now, just wait and see, it's coming!!!111!1!!!1! Bla Bla fucking Bla.

Looking for evidence of contradictory messaging regarding D4 over the past year...SCANNING...NOT FOUND... EXIT ROUTINE. Moving on.

Byr · Mar 31, 2023

Argarth said:
This reposting/rehashing of shit some DI drone(s) said in the past is so fucking tiresome, and has absolutely nothing to do with D4, it's business model, or the game's design.
Yeah I get it, Blizzard bad, will always be bad, can't ever doing anything but bad, even if not right now, just wait and see, it's coming!!!111!1!!!1! Bla Bla fucking Bla.

Looking for evidence of contradictory messaging regarding D4 over the past year...SCANNING...NOT FOUND... EXIT ROUTINE. Moving on.

Ya....we definitely shouldn't pay attention to what the same developer has done in the past with the same franchise. It's not like history is the best predictor of the future or anything.

Arbitrary · Mar 31, 2023

Byr said:
Ya....we definitely shouldn't pay attention to what the same developer has done in the past with the same franchise. It's not like history is the best predictor of the future or anything.

What, don't you have a phone?

jayrebb · Mar 31, 2023

Cinge said:
You give blizzard too much credit.

That slippery Chinese fuck was allowed to consult on D4. His exact level of involvement in D4 remains unknown. So while the definition of pay2win has yet to be twisted in D4-- the architect of it was allowed to work on D4 in some capacity, if not just in passing as an executive consultant.

Arbitrary said:
What, don't you have a phone?

Don't you guys have tattoos?

jooka · Mar 31, 2023

Wasn't diablo immortal basically just netease using blizzards ip? Which is also the reason it is still available in china while no other actual blizzard games are

jayrebb · Mar 31, 2023

jooka said:
Wasn't diablo immartal basically just netease using blizzards ip? Which is also the reason it is still available in china while no other actual blizzard games are

Ching chong confirmed the only part of the game that Blizzard corporate can't touch is the monetization prices and gem system. Netease was selected as a partner for the monetization aspect since they have the experience in the mobile sector. He admitted this to Raxx in a private conversation that monetization was completely untouchable and set in stone ala Netease.

Everything else, including timegates on the battlepass, was designed by Blizzard themselves in house.

jooka · Mar 31, 2023

so everything you are bitching about was out of the control of blizzard and won't be the case with d4?

jayrebb · Mar 31, 2023

jooka said:
so everything you are bitching about was out of the control of blizzard and won't be the case with d4?

Reread back a few pages. Timegates on the Battlepass are a serious concern outside of the pay2win talk.

That's something the thread is mutually concerned about no matter which side you are on.

Cinge · Apr 1, 2023

jayrebb said:
That slippery Chinese fuck was allowed to consult on D4. His exact level of involvement in D4 remains unknown. So while the definition of pay2win has yet to be twisted in D4-- the architect of it was allowed to work on D4 in some capacity, if not just in passing as an executive consultant.

Don't you guys have tattoos?

I am saying what constitutes p2w has been changing before blizzard really got into It. They are just another in a line of developers doing it.

As for timegates in a pass, serious concern? Lol. They are going to almost assuredly be there, they are in every game almost. Its how they stop the hardcore from finishing in a week and how to keep casuals around for as long as possible. It's not really a concern at all. Even in the free one I bet. It would be rare to not be there. To some it might cause them to not buy the game and that's their right.

If you think about it, that final d3 season had it with the altar. The weekly challenge rift cache? You only knew to save it if you researched before playing, otherwise you were waiting a week to get one.

Mizake · Apr 1, 2023

jayrebb said:
Debatable. That'd assume the rewards aren't important or wanted. Players decide what systems are going to be important to them.

It should go without saying PvP was the "endgame" in D2 for many people. Not Baal runs. Hiding behind "PvP is optional" doesn't hold if the rewards may be valuable. Opt out of valuable rewards?

That's not even getting into the tremendous pressure being applied to Blizzard right now to make Fields open PvP. The lobby for that is quite large.

What percent of players in D2 do you think PvPd regularly? How many PvP in the new D2 remaster? Sure some people did it to flex, but there wasn’t like a ladder or ranking system to chase. Do you honestly think there was more people pvping than doing Baal runs?

I already mentioned that purchasing rewards will be important for people who participate in PvP. I just think the percent of people who PvP in a game like Diablo is small. Most play the game for what it’s designed for, the PvE elements.

Also, you mentioned possibly missing out on valuable rewards. We don’t know yet exactly what the rewards will be, but I’m interested in knowing what you consider valuable. Take another Blizzard product like diablo immortal as an example.

jayrebb · Apr 1, 2023

Mizake said:
What percent of players in D2 do you think PvPd regularly? How many PvP in the new D2 remaster? Sure some people did it to flex, but there wasn’t like a ladder or ranking system to chase. Do you honestly think there was more people pvping than doing Baal runs?

I already mentioned that purchasing rewards will be important for people who participate in PvP. I just think the percent of people who PvP in a game like Diablo is small. Most play the game for what it’s designed for, the PvE elements.

Also, you mentioned possibly missing out on valuable rewards. We don’t know yet exactly what the rewards will be, but I’m interested in knowing what you consider valuable. Take another Blizzard product like diablo immortal as an example.

The grind to PvP required Baal runs and more, as you know. Was there casual PvP? Sure, and that'd be a small minority of players participating in that. If you went by "who's grabbing some rags gear and a runeword and locking a meta build in and looking for PvP fast" it'd be damn small.

Since it took a lot more than a few dozen Baal runs to gearspec for actual "real competitive PvP", I myself never made it into the PvP game. I'll put some hours in, but I wouldn't do what's actually necessary to do real endgame PvP in the D2 endgame. I also don't like being jammed into a meta build for it. Players who may have had an interest in D2 PvP most likely never actually PvP'd for the same reason, despite the fact they would check a box that PvP was important to them if polled. You can't say their sole motivation for playing wasn't PvP just because they failed to achieve a PvP status build and go do some PvP activities. It's a lot of "Oh yeah, I'll do some PvP. PvP rocks. I'll do that someday". Someday remains someday. The arms race could still be said to be their sole motivating factor for playing the game. They like the idea that PvP is available and will play toward that end.

Diablo 4 / IV / IIII / Fore / Cope / Seethe

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