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Chris

Potato del Grande
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When you say mid, or others giving various 7/10 ratings, etc. what exactly are you comparing it to? PoE, Grim dawn, Last epoch, lost ark, etc? or, games in general? or d2 and 3 specifically? or, some theoretical arpg that should exist?
PoE, D2 and D3 for me.

They got the look and feel of the world back to D2 quality which is great. They don't have enough biome or enemy diversity though, TWO of the five zones are Desert and Fallen Ones are everywhere. One part of the map you can't go to and it's the Jungle zone from D2.

The story is a massive improvement from D3 and had potential, but needed another draft or two to get rid of some stupid moments as well as some player choice. Diablo is not in the game.

It's not on rails as much as D3 but you still have a dialogue satnav to follow. They really needed quests like "We need the Horadaric Staff, go search these zones for the parts and I'll leave you the fuck alone while you explore".

The combat is not as fluid as D3, the one thing people liked about that game, the skill customisation is about 1/3rd of what D3 had. Yet the world has much more to do in it and much more to explore.

Everything is one step forward, one step backward. It's 7/10 in a world where that is the average.

It's launching between Zelda TotK and Final Fantasy 16. Oof.
 

Leon

<Silver Donator>
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When you say mid, or others giving various 7/10 ratings, etc. what exactly are you comparing it to? PoE, Grim dawn, Last epoch, lost ark, etc? or, games in general? or d2 and 3 specifically? or, some theoretical arpg that should exist?
From a standpoint of looking at it from the outside (I haven't picked up the game yet), every video I see screams D3 to me.

Every build I have seen played so far is the same (but slightly different for reach class I suppose) combination of a few things:

-Apply vulnerable. This seems like an absolutely key thing to do.
-Group mobs and blow them up.
-Either have extreme mobility to avoid hits that will CC you or have a combination of abilities making you immune to said CC, or you're basically CC'ed for seconds leading to death. the second part will most likely see nerfs to uptime (already has)

I have yet to see builds that kill mobs from ranged purely. Think back to amazons, or ice sorcs in D2, or many many builds in POE that do that very well, they do not seem to exist here, or are very rare. It really seem to boil down to builder/spender/group mobs/blow them up and dash to the next pack. Every time. I find that just by looking at it that way the build variety seems very very VERY limited, and I think if they are going to introduce sets (they will) it will only reinforce that, but also limit itemization even further because everyone will now play with the same sets since chances are they are going to multiply your damage by 100000 like they did in D3.

Now I'm making assumptions here with how the sets will work, and if I would actually LOVE to be wrong, but the track record so far is there to point in that direction.

This might be a nitpick here also but I find the mobs themselves to be boring and uninspired. Goat men, spiders, fallen, beasts etc are almost straight up copied from D3 with a new look but not quite new enough to make them interesting. I feel there are very little variety in mob type and nothing that is....memorable? If that makes sense? Density also seems to be off for an AARPG. Lot of areas are just empty and you're just running for .....minutes? without really anything to kill. Why?

Boss fights seem to be overwhelmingly disappointing as well according to most players. Nothing in the boss fights seems challenging/interesting. Most people will struggle getting on shot by some weird affix combination, sometimes from a few screen away. White mobs seem way more dangerous than bosses for the most part.

I've never been a huge POE fanboy, I played may be 4 leagues in a row a few years back, and kind of shelved it, mostly because I had other shit to do, however, the variety in every aspect in POE is just leagues above anything D4 has to offer. Yes it just released, yes it looks like a good skeletion for a potentially good game, but they need to put a LOT of work into this, not just tack on a couple of seasonal items on it every few months and call it a day. Will they do that? Does blizzard actually have it in them to do that? Time will tell.

Trading is a sticky point as well, trade only matters if uniques / items have enough variety to really matter.
If combinations of uniques allow for specific crazy combos that open up new builds and new ways to play, then trading takes on a whole new meaning. It seems like the way drops work and the way itemization is already headed in D4 trading doesn't even matter. What currency would you trade with anyway? Gems? these hardly matter? Gold? May be, but that's pretty bland as well. Trading unique for other rare/uniques, but with so few items actually mattering or opening up new build path there's really no point in D4.

One thing D4 seems to have done really well is group play, from pretty much everyone that has grouped it's a pretty clear good feedback there, and it kind of helps justifying the scaling. But scaling is also an horrendous system if you're a pure solo player, and a lot of people play AARPGs solo.
 

Kythik

Molten Core Raider
736
369
Some item identity is there, at least for weapons; wands have +lucky strike, staves + crowed control dmg, crossbows +vuln dmg.
 

Aazrael

Golden Baronet of the Realm
3,230
12,077
Tried the capstone dungeon at 61. Minions got deleted by the first 2 elites and then I exploded into blood mist. I got way further on my attempt at like 58, guess I got unlucky with the elites.
 

Zindan

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,999
4,662
Chris Chris The combat is not as smooth as D3? I'll have to disagree, in regards to animations at least. The pacing of combat kinda sucks though compared to D3. I feel that in D3 you could get your character up and running quicker, in that they weren't resource starved like every class in D4 is for a long time.

I'm generally positive about D4, no regrets on purchase, as others mentioned the game will just get better over time (unless Seasons are far worse than we imagine). I think the most annoying things about D4, for me at the moment, would be the lack of UI scaling and the Mount desyncing (top priority fix imo). Then other things like the UI for Skill / Paragon trees, those seem like ass to me, but not a deal breaker.
 

Chris

Potato del Grande
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Some item identity is there, at least for weapons; wands have +lucky strike, staves + crowed control dmg, crossbows +vuln dmg.
Well I'm a Rogue so I get Swords and Daggers. That's it. Only they drop.

PoE has multiple types of swords and daggers and daggerswords with different damage ranges, attack speeds and preset mods. All classes can equip Maces and Axes if you wish it. PoE had that in Open Beta.
 
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Leon

<Silver Donator>
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ome item identity is there, at least for weapons; wands have +lucky strike, staves + crowed control dmg, crossbows +vuln dmg.
That's hardly item identity.

That's the same shit they've been doing with wow for a long long time now. Take your pick of +haste or +crit or +whatever on this piece or that piece, but where are the fun affixes / abilities that completely transform the playstyle / open up new builds etc? I'm guessing this is reserved for future sets, and hence lies the problem with doing sets that give abilities instead of uniques that give fun and interesting abilities. Sets will force you to wear 3+ pieces to get to the 'fun' abillities, while uniques hold their own by themselves but can be combined with other items that have their own fun abilities to make brand new ways to play the game.

As it is we're headed for a D3 archetype with 3 or 4 builds per class and that's that, mostly dictated by set gear + 1 or 2 uniques.

Again, not a POE hardcore player, but the possibilities in that game just based on combination of uniques is completely mind blowing. Add league machanics and crafting (oof) on top of that and you could play every league in POE without playing the same build ever, it's not even close. You could play 10 different builds per league and play 10 COMPLETELY different builds the next. That's never going to be the case in D4 the way it's headed.
 
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Chris

Potato del Grande
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Chris Chris The combat is not as smooth as D3? I'll have to disagree, in regards to animations at least. The pacing of combat kinda sucks though compared to D3. I feel that in D3 you could get your character up and running quicker, in that they weren't resource starved like every class in D4 is for a long time.

I'm generally positive about D4, no regrets on purchase, as others mentioned the game will just get better over time (unless Seasons are far worse than we imagine). I think the most annoying things about D4, for me at the moment, would be the lack of UI scaling and the Mount desyncing (top priority fix imo). Then other things like the UI for Skill / Paragon trees, those seem like ass to me, but not a deal breaker.
Well I'm comparing Monk to Rogue. Other classes are probably closer.

The biggest sin for me is the shitty roll ability where your character stumbles forward a short distance.

PoE improved it's mobility with lots of different dashes and teleports, so I actually think this is less reaponsive than PoE and that was always the thing PoE was worse than D3 for.
 

Brodhi

I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
<Donor>
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You want to know if the games itemization sucks? Do you wish it had loot filters so you can ignore all the shit that drops? Than your iteminzation is a failure. Do you get bored of having to look through all the loot that drops to read every randomly generated generic stat and do item compares to see if the new randomly generated stats are a little better that your other randomly generated stats, and your doing that more than your actually playing the game? Than your itemization is a failure.
 
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Tarrant

<Prior Amod>
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I want to know who at Blizzard thought a gem should take up the same amount of inventory space as weapons and armor. So dumb.
 
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zombiewizardhawk

Potato del Grande
9,875
12,813
That's hardly item identity.

That's the same shit they've been doing with wow for a long long time now. Take your pick of +haste or +crit or +whatever on this piece or that piece, but where are the fun affixes / abilities that completely transform the playstyle / open up new builds etc? I'm guessing this is reserved for future sets, and hence lies the problem with doing sets that give abilities instead of uniques that give fun and interesting abilities. Sets will force you to wear 3+ pieces to get to the 'fun' abillities, while uniques hold their own by themselves but can be combined with other items that have their own fun abilities to make brand new ways to play the game.

As it is we're headed for a D3 archetype with 3 or 4 builds per class and that's that, mostly dictated by set gear + 1 or 2 uniques.

Again, not a POE hardcore player, but the possibilities in that game just based on combination of uniques is completely mind blowing. Add league machanics and crafting (oof) on top of that and you could play every league in POE without playing the same build ever, it's not even close. You could play 10 different builds per league and play 10 COMPLETELY different builds the next. That's never going to be the case in D4 the way it's headed.

Completely different in the sense that you see a different particle effect when you press right click maybe. If you think the "massive build diversity" in poe is anything but that, you're delusional/retarded.
 
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Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,277
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You want to know if the games itemization sucks? Do you wish it had loot filters so you can ignore all the shit that drops? Than your iteminzation is a failure. Do you get bored of having to look through all the loot that drops to read every randomly generated generic stat and do item compares to see if the new randomly generated stats are a little better that your other randomly generated stats, and your doing that more than your actually playing the game? Than your itemization is a failure.

So basically every ARPG ever. Because you just end up ignoring 90% of the loot, looking for specifics.

Not even really just ARPGs, you find this in a surprisingly large amount of games and genres.

I think these companies just make so many items just to have items. Also to have some kind of filler "Vendor trash" or in this case salvage and vendor trash.
 
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zombiewizardhawk

Potato del Grande
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You want to know if the games itemization sucks? Do you wish it had loot filters so you can ignore all the shit that drops? Than your iteminzation is a failure. Do you get bored of having to look through all the loot that drops to read every randomly generated generic stat and do item compares to see if the new randomly generated stats are a little better that your other randomly generated stats, and your doing that more than your actually playing the game? Than your itemization is a failure.

So every itemization in every arpg ever is a failure? Fair enough.
 
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Khane

Got something right about marriage
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So basically every ARPG ever. Because you just end up ignoring 90% of the loot, looking for specifics.

Not even really just ARPGs, you find this in a surprisingly large amount of games and genres.

I think these companies just make so many items just to have items.

Much easier to ignore 90% of loot when you can just filter it out and not even see it
 

Leon

<Silver Donator>
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Completely different in the sense that you see a different particle effect when you press right click maybe. If you think the "massive build diversity" in poe is anything but that, you're delusional/retarded.
build diversity in POE is just different particle effects on right click has got to be up there in the dumbest takes this forum has ever seen. God damn that is new levels of fucking stupid.
 
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Aazrael

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Jesus fuck this thread. Anyways I beat the Capstone dungeon after I reset it. Last boss was kinda hard and there were quite a few close calls but got him down.
 
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Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Much easier to ignore 90% of loot when you can just filter it out and not even see it

I agree, I would love a filter that just ignores sacred yellows at this point. I don't expect it though. It's never been addressed in any other of their games. Doesn't mean its not there, they still drop. And I don't think we will ever see an auto salvage, given the value a yellow grade item can have. Also I can't see them programming something that lets you set the values(it auto salvage anything under a certain item power level).

At least in d3, if it wasnt orange/green, you ignored it. So the star on the map+ sound was enough to realize you had a drop. Yellow and below become irrelavent really fast, outside salvage mats.
 

Mizake

Trakanon Raider
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Again, not a POE hardcore player, but the possibilities in that game just based on combination of uniques is completely mind blowing. Add league machanics and crafting (oof) on top of that and you could play every league in POE without playing the same build ever, it's not even close. You could play 10 different builds per league and play 10 COMPLETELY different builds the next. That's never going to be the case in D4 the way it's headed.

It's not an apples to apples comparison though. I liked PoE a lot, I'm looking forward to PoE2, but the class mechanics are completely different.

First off, PoE has no set classes. You talk about 10 different builds.....that's because all the skills and talents are located on a single tree, and your abilities stem from which direction you go. You choose your base class, and then branch out from there. Whereas in D4, you choose a very specific class to start, then have a few variations from there. Pet class, ballista build, totem builds....that would be the equivalent of rolling a necro, rogue, or shaman in Diablo. In PoE, you could reset and go a completely different build. In Diablo, you would have to create a new character with a different class. Otherwise, it's similar. Also, there is the illusion of a huge variety of builds, but as we all know, people will gravitate towards the top 5 or so. Same in Diablo, same in any ARPG once it's been parsed.

Also, PoE relies heavily on the community, which is it's strength and it's weakness. Strength in that in produces a very strong, dedicated following, weakness in that if you are not part of that community (as a casual that doesn't have time to read about the best builds every single league) it leaves you on the outside. You cannot play PoE casually and progress, I tried that the first time I played, I remembered making a totem build, just selecting nodes I liked.....and I couldn't beat the first big boss. I also couldn't do high end mapping. It took joining and reading the forums for me to actually begin to enjoy the game and progress to end game. That's a different target audience imo than Diablo, which isn't nearly as complex, and more for the beer and pretzel crowd.
 
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zombiewizardhawk

Potato del Grande
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build diversity in POE is just different particle effects on right click has got to be up there in the dumbest takes this forum has ever seen. God damn that is new levels of fucking stupid.

Ok, explain to me the effective playstyle differences between tshot, lightning arrow, toxic rain, or any other bow skill that people use other than "lol one you scale chaos dot multi and the other you scale phys dmg or ele dmg" etc. etc. for every other skill that has 10 basically identical ones.
 

Leon

<Silver Donator>
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It's not an apples to apples comparison though. I liked PoE a lot, I'm looking forward to PoE2, but the class mechanics are completely different.

First off, PoE has no set classes. You talk about 10 different builds.....that's because all the skills and talents are located on a single tree, and your abilities stem from which direction you go. You choose your base class, and then branch out from there. Whereas in D4, you choose a very specific class to start, then have a few variations from there. Pet class, ballista build, totem builds....that would be the equivalent of rolling a necro, rogue, or shaman in Diablo. In PoE, you could reset and go a completely different build. In Diablo, you would have to create a new character with a different class. Otherwise, it's similar. Also, there is the illusion of a huge variety of builds, but as we all know, people will gravitate towards the top 5 or so. Same in Diablo, same in any ARPG once it's been parsed.

Also, PoE relies heavily on the community, which is it's strength and it's weakness. Strength in that in produces a very strong, dedicated following, weakness in that if you are not part of that community (as a casual that doesn't have time to read about the best builds every single league) it leaves you on the outside. You cannot play PoE casually and progress, I tried that the first time I played, I remembered making a totem build, just selecting nodes I liked.....and I couldn't beat the first big boss. I also couldn't do high end mapping. It took joining and reading the forums for me to actually begin to enjoy the game and progress to end game. That's a different target audience imo than Diablo, which isn't nearly as complex, and more for the beer and pretzel crowd.
Fair enough it's not and I agree.

Ascendencies give class individuality but I agree it's not the same as classes in the diablo franchise, and everyone can use any ability due to the socketing system .

There is still way more than can be done with item individual properties and skill customisation to open up way more build paths than what we see here. They did the bare minimum to try for d4 to be just different enough than d3 but not quite enough to offer new interesting systems and diversity in builds.
 
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