EQ Never

Teekey

Mr. Poopybutthole
3,644
-6,335
R.I.P Swtor. Fuck them.
What bugged me the most about the SWTOR cash shop is how in your face it is all the time. You're constantly reminded about it, even as a subscribed player. I actually kind of like WoW's method, despite not having bought anything (their prices are insane). Have the cash shop be online, separate from the game. It's there if you want it, but easy to forget about during regular gaming.

Although I guess that doesn't exploit frustrated players who furiously type in their credit card info to overcome some minor inconvenience. Which I suppose is the real reason to have it all in game.Oh your bags are full? If you pay $4.99 you could open up 20 more slots!

I can't decide if that was their way of rubbing in everyone's face that they got to see EQN before us, or if they mean it and are really that excited about it. All I know is,ifthere is a huge negative reaction to EQN, those people should lose their jobs. We get enough false-hype from developers (especially SoE), we don't need it from gaming sites too.
Completely agree. For all we know, they saw nothing beyond concepts with a heap of marketing spiel that got their panties wet with what could be.

Hopefully SoE really puts themselves out there and doesn't hide behind an NDA like most MMO-turds have in the past decade.
 

Dizzam_sl

shitlord
247
0
Hopefully SoE really puts themselves out there and doesn't hide behind an NDA like most MMO-turds have in the past decade.
If we get nothing more than a few screenshots or some gameplay footage, I'm going to take that as a white flag from SoE. In fact, if I hear anyone from SoE say "we can't talk about that yet" even a single time, I'm just going to assume EQN is a steaming pile of crap.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,751
8,192
If they monetized twinking alone they'd make a bazillion dollars. Make everything level restricted, and make a purchasable level unlock consumable. Make this consumable $2. Watch the cash flow in.
 

Droigan

Trakanon Raider
2,555
1,237
If they monetized twinking alone they'd make a bazillion dollars. Make everything level restricted, and make a purchasable level unlock consumable. Make this consumable $2. Watch the cash flow in.
Granted, that is pay to win (especially on PvP), but they could do that on a different server and it would work fine. Have a separate server where you could start a toon with the ability to level it up faster with the consumables. Could add the rule that you could only purchase level ups to match the highest level character you had on a normal server. Also, for a small fee, maybe 50 cents worth of in game cash, you can send items cross server (a few at a time, or perhaps $5 for as much as you would like for a limited time), so you could twink it. Would not break the game for people playing it normally, and would enable to you roll a different class and level up quickly with items aquired earlier. They could also take it the step of enabling you to pay for a consumable that would turn rare/epic items bound to your character, bound to your account. $10 to unlock the ability to use a raid boss item for your twink, lots would do that eventually, even at a very high price.
 

Miele

Lord Nagafen Raider
916
48
What bugged me the most about the SWTOR cash shop is how in your face it is all the time. You're constantly reminded about it, even as a subscribed player. I actually kind of like WoW's method, despite not having bought anything (their prices are insane). Have the cash shop be online, separate from the game. It's there if you want it, but easy to forget about during regular gaming.

Although I guess that doesn't exploit frustrated players who furiously type in their credit card info to overcome some minor inconvenience. Which I suppose is the real reason to have it all in game.Oh your bags are full? If you pay $4.99 you could open up 20 more slots!
Bag slots are QoL above a certain minimum, but hotbars? Exp gain rate is stupid, the way they did it, because now if I follow the questlines on rails, I eventually fall behind and face content above my level. Should have made the usual xp potions, but they had to be creative. SWtoR won't get a dime from me, ever and I love the setting.

GW2: I have bought stuff in GW2, not because I needed it to play (more hotkeys? lol), but because I wanted it: more bags, more bank space, more character slots (altoholic and packrat, bad combo). I spent more money on GW2 per month than in any other game with a sub. That's cash shop done right. If you are a poopsocker and/or gold farmer, you can buy everything with in-game currency, don't need to spend anything at all. Nothing is pay to win either, cosmetic fluff and crap of all kinds, plus a few services per industry standard: transfers, renames, makeovers, etc.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,383
276
Yea as you can see in the TESO thread (lol) most people are chill with GW2's cash shop. I find it well done except for the fact they dont put enough cosmetics into their actual content since launch and too much in the cash shop.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,902
6,888
I While I cannot argue your subjective like for Vanguard or your specific tastes, we should agree that it was an objective failure and sunk the organization.
I thought SoE picked up Vanguard from Sigil for next to nothing (in Dev dollars)? Just a cheap way to enhance their Station Access package. And since they never really supported the game in anything but a minimal way, that seemed to be true. It sunk Sigil for sure but SoE didn't even blink.

Can't argue with the rest of your assessment. Some of SoE's decisions over the years have been the worst I've ever seen. Even though they made some of my favorite games. Hopefully, they will get it right this time and PS2 gives me some encouragement. But it's still SoE and their ability to shoot themselves in the foot is second to none.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,438
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Georgeson is a concern. Butler has creative experience at Sigil and at SOE (you forget that he was head of the unnamed-most-likely-EQN prototype team that formed right after SOE bought Sigil)
Without any experience before hand and most likely is the reason why they have quite a few stop starts now. (Which obviously, is never good) It never was his job. Like, ever. And he didn't even do the job he was supposed to do, well. In fact, he fell on his ass. He is completely incompetent as a producer, executive producer, and now will be incompetent as a creative director. Especially when led by a guy that thinks the EQ2 F2P system was the driver of the market and a go to copy cat for other organizations. This guy is so fucking high on himself (Georgeson) for what has to be some of the worst expansions/feature driven applications in EQ2. You have to wonder what reality the guy lives in.

BIll Trost, Jeff Butler, Dave Georgeson, Brad McQuaid (At least he is only designing again... That's honestly where he belongs), and others in this mix didn't know what the hell they were doing when it came to EverQuest (or EQ2) and theplayersturned it into emergent game play. You can't design it. Emergent game play happens as a result of players developing their own game play mechanisms as a result of developers not knowing what the fuck they are doing (At least in this space) and you cannot drive it. Once you try to steer the wheel into some marketing gimmick, it's a lose lose. And it's one of the reasons why they are failing as an organization when it comes to their other games. The height of SOE's comeback came with Hartsman and the EQ2 EoF expansion. Why? Because the relic management was being dismembered.

What amazes me after all this time, what is it... 14 years now since the launch of EQ, failure after failure, anyone still puts stake in these people.

The good ol' boys club is back in full force. That's a fucking shame too because SOE almost turned it around there for a little bit.
 

Hinadurus_sl

shitlord
131
0
Little late to the PVP discussion, but I'd like to add some insight to the appeal of it. I started on Tallon Zek originally as a druid, made it to possibly 30 or so, then sold ALL my gear for rogue twink gear and made my dwarf rogue Hinadurus. I started EQ at my friends suggestion and even joined TZ with him, which is ironic nowadays because he no longer enjoys competition and basically avoids pvp at all costs. Even the mention of it gets him all bent out of shape. Well, I love it. I thought having four factions was brilliant and I haven't played a game with such loyalty to factions since then.

PVP isn't about being a pker who goes around ganking noobs for shits n giggles. People who hunt noobs are generally crap to their peers so they have to do SOMETHING to feel better about themselves. That's why it's hilarious being the noob in those situations, but having access to a high level or having high level buddies to come back you up. Suddenly, that big badass is tripping over himself to get away.

PVP is the thrill of earning your right to territory or passage through an area. It's the paranoia and risk of going to enemy lands and making it out alive. PVE simply doesn't instill that kind of fear that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand on end when you see figures approaching in the distance, or hear footsteps behind you in an otherwise desolate area. PVP brings people together to fight for their guilds with a fervor unmatched in the PVE realm. It's another layer on top of the game that your character can climb upon to show they are to be respected and feared.

To this day I still remember major players of the PVP scene on TZ. These people were BotB winners, they were menaces on the battlefield, and if you encountered them alone.. what a rush! I remember I had been climbing the ladder of my guild which at the time was probably 3rd, struggling for 2nd in the raid scene, and we had just fought the top guild for rights to slay the Dain. Well we got our asses handed to us and were beginning to scatter, I ended up playing zone tag a bit with a human monk by the name of Gylen. He was beyond me in both gear and skill, I was losing at a quick pace, but hanging on for all I was worth. I wanted to show this guy that in a one on one I wouldn't just sit down and wait to die like many other players did when faced with odds that weren't in their favour. We were circle strafing around eachother and he whipped out a 2h and we began the joust, which for rogues was tough as hell but it was still possible to land backstabs. We went on for another two minutes or so and I managed to land a few on him, but I was nearly dead. Then he stopped and backed up, so I did the same because I knew he had something to say. Then he asked when I was going to join their guild, this is a guy who I had never fought prior to this point, and certainly never grouped with. To me, this guy was a legend in the flesh, and he was leading me down a new path. Well, we had a short conversation, and in the following weeks I slowly made the transition out of my guild to this strange new guild who, to my roleplaying horror, was infested with darkelves, trolls, ogres, and iksars. This was a crossteaming guild, something that was an extreme taboo at the time on TZ. They were powerful, dominating, and fearsome.. and I had gotten there by a battle of chance with a lone monk. This entire event was something PVE could never replicate and the feelings it stirred, the panic and rush of that duel, the moment of peace where we talked about our successes and loyalties, and finally the pride and anxiety of joining a new crowd. Without PVP this never would have been possible.

The point of that little story is that PVP is what you make of it. If you are going to roll over and play dead or downright quit because someone is OBVIOUSLY griefing you, well you probably weren't in the right mindset to play PVP at the time anyway. It's not for everyone, but it shouldn't be downplayed just because some people have bad experiences with it. It's a completely different world, with it's own players, factions, and intangible rewards which PVE, in my opinion, will never be able to replicate.
 

BubbySoup

Golden Knight of the Realm
130
55
Without any experience before hand and most likely is the reason why they have quite a few stop starts now. (Which obviously, is never good) It never was his job. Like, ever. And he didn't even do the job he was supposed to do, well. In fact, he fell on his ass. He is completely incompetent as a producer, executive producer, and now will be incompetent as a creative director. Especially when led by a guy that thinks the EQ2 F2P system was the driver of the market and a go to copy cat for other organizations. This guy is so fucking high on himself (Georgeson) for what has to be some of the worst expansions/feature driven applications in EQ2. You have to wonder what reality the guy lives in.

BIll Trost, Jeff Butler, Dave Georgeson, Brad McQuaid (At least he is only designing again... That's honestly where he belongs), and others in this mix didn't know what the hell they were doing when it came to EverQuest (or EQ2) and theplayersturned it into emergent game play. You can't design it. Emergent game play happens as a result of players developing their own game play mechanisms as a result of developers not knowing what the fuck they are doing (At least in this space) and you cannot drive it. Once you try to steer the wheel into some marketing gimmick, it's a lose lose. And it's one of the reasons why they are failing as an organization when it comes to their other games. The height of SOE's comeback came with Hartsman and the EQ2 EoF expansion. Why? Because the relic management was being dismembered.

What amazes me after all this time, what is it... 14 years now since the launch of EQ, failure after failure, anyone still puts stake in these people.

The good ol' boys club is back in full force. That's a fucking shame too because SOE almost turned it around there for a little bit.
I pretty much agree with all of that which is why I am not really holding out much hope for EQN. I'm pretty sure I will buy it, if only out of some misguided kind of loyalty or homage to EQ. I also remember reading nepotism is high on the list at SoE.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Judging from vanguard these guys still don't know what the hell they're doing. So I guess there's some hope that EQN will have some badass emergent gameplay.

It's an idiots hope but I guess that's still preferable to no hope if you just really love EQ.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,902
6,888
UT, do you consider PS2 and DCuO to be failures? Last I heard they were doing fairly well, especially PS2. Which indicates they may have righted the ship.

EQ is their flagship IP though, it will be interesting to see how much they have actually learned from their past failures and successes.

Judging from vanguard these guys still don't know what the hell they're doing. So I guess there's some hope that EQN will have some badass emergent gameplay.

It's an idiots hope but I guess that's still preferable to no hope if you just really love EQ.
To be fair, Vanguard was Sigil's failure. SoE bought it out after it had already failed. If you mean their failure to support the game after they bought it then I can agree with that. But their reasoning was probably that any success Vanguard had would most likely be at the expense of EQ2. So they decided to focus resources on their signature game and put Vanguard on life support.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
As a mmo, DCUO is pretty awful. As a little multiplayer game it's not terrible. I don't think I'd consider it a complete failure, but it certainly failed to match it's creative potential / earning potential. I don't think you could seriously consider dcuo a successful enterprise. Just Sony's most successful since EQ2... which is a world of a different thing.

And now they're just "f2p" cash grabbing replay tokens from 18-24 year old fanboys. I fully expect them to turn the servers off soon. DCUO has gotten to that point.

It's really, really obvious that they might have 1 guy assigned to work on the project (maybe), and whatever other work gets done on DCUO is through temps.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,902
6,888
PS2 is hugely successful for Sony, and their most recent mmo. It has the same engine that EQNext is using and their cash shop is the model EQNext will probably use.

Totally different games otherwise but the basic foundation is good.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,438
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UT, do you consider PS2 and DCuO to be failures? Last I heard they were doing fairly well, especially PS2. Which indicates they may have righted the ship.
One of the main reasons PS2 did well was because of Matt Higby. He's a solid dude that just wants to make great games and is fairly transparent with the community. He goes by Las0m over on SA. As I stated before, if he was in charge of this project from the get go, without any of the involvement from the bottom of the barrel never were, I would be more excited. With that said, last I checked server populations for Planetside 2 a few times many of the servers were low and only a few at medium, and this was in prime time. Smed told me in an email however that PS2 will be their most profitable game since EQ1. (More than EQ2, DCUO, SWG, Etc) so I think that is saying quite a bit of the driving philosophy behind F2P and it's current system in PS2. Expect to see the same in EQ Next.

DCUO is split between platforms. PS3 is wildly successful. PC, not so much anymore. Console gamers love it. I liked it for about 2 weeks before it became horribly stale. The main reason was a horrible consolized user interface and just not enough content. It was fun for what I played though. With that said it is down to one PS3 server in the US and one PC server in the US. The PS3 server is high population even at 9:48am on a friday morning.

If you mean their failure to support the game after they bought it then I can agree with that. But their reasoning was probably that any success Vanguard had would most likely be at the expense of EQ2. So they decided to focus resources on their signature game and put Vanguard on life support.
Yeah I agree, my main point here being though that some of the leaders of Vanguard are now behind this project. And before Vanguard, they got lucky. And I would say VERY lucky in the fact they used a Tank Simulator engine and 80% of the game play that emerged wasn't planned at all. They just shrugged their shoulders, laughed, and went with it. Along with horrible design philosophies. Basically my point being that anytime they actually "tried" to design a game other than throw darts at shit, they have failed miserably. And the chances of lightning striking randomly twice, is long gone.

EQ Next had a tremendous opportunity to cash in on the EQ1 legacy in a proper way with present game-play systems and mechanics which could be hilariously designed, make fun of itself, get serious at times... The possibilities are endless to play on the goofs of EQ1. It's unfortunate none of that is going to be realized.
 

bixxby

Molten Core Raider
2,750
47
Their server merge plan was actually a very awesome idea. They made all the servers into 1 giant server. Hopefully they manage to do something like that for future games, it's sweet not having another barrier to playing with people.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Yeah, PS2 isn't even on my radar. I know jackfuck about that game and don't doubt you.

so scratch the most successful since EQ2. I know that DCUO does make sony some money, or at least it did, so it's not a failure in the way a lot of their titles have been. But i'd be leery of calling it successful.

I just don't know how it could possibly continue to make money with their support and development strategies over the last 2 months. It's like they're trying to cash out. It makes me think they really have no plans to port it to the next playstation (even if they claim otherwise) and ARE just trying to cash it out.
 

Nirgon

YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE
13,440
20,966
3 out of 5 classic EQ hardcore PvPers agree: we won't see a system like classic EQ again.

I think the unlimited level range thing works with factions, but I also think 2 faction systems are DEAD. One side will always be larger, and some much more so/out of proportion (hi2u evil race team on pvp server, duh) but at least the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th factions run into each other at times and have some good fights on a multi-team server.

The open world system is good for this, as long as there aren't "objectives" aka zerg points... or you go with the system Warhammer finally implemented with supply lines. Also, if there are multi-faction servers (and there, so help me god better not all 2 faction Horde/Alliance style servers), they need to be sure to show on server select which team has X number of active players (update it per week imo). This high/low doesn't help as the game goes on because the more relevant issue becomes "who has the most high level players at prime time". But, like I continue to preach, make it FFA and open world without zergable Wintergrasp-like content. Having a strong number of players should be a good thing, but not at the expense of losing targets. Further, PvP really shouldn't even be mandatory or have its own gear set. However, you should be able to take a piece of gear from people.

To this day I can't understand making a grindable system like battlegrounds when the most fun is definitely random world pvp encounters.