EQ Never

tad10 · Jul 26, 2013

Utnayan_sl said:
Unfortunately we all have 14 years of experience watching these people trail blaze from company to company fucking up whatever they touch.

Lol. SOE had EQ and SWG (which wasn't my cup of tea, but for the right sort of player was the shit) and I enjoyed the hell out of DCUO for a month, Sigil had Vanguard and Bioware had a number of good single player RPGS. So I'm certainly willing to wait until the reveal before dismissing the game.

That said, as noted, I wish Smed would get off his all-FTP all-the-time horse, it is a false dichotomy thinking a game has to be FTP or has to be PTP. You can use both monetization methods.

Utnayan · Jul 26, 2013

tad10_sl said:
Lol. SOE had EQ and SWG (which wasn't my cup of tea, but for the right sort of player was the shit) and I enjoyed the hell out of DCUO for a month, Sigil had Vanguard and Bioware had a number of good single player RPGS. So I'm certainly willing to wait until the reveal before dismissing the game.

That said, as noted, I wish Smed would get off his all-FTP all-the-time horse, it is a false dichotomy thinking a game has to be FTP or has to be PTP. You can use both monetization methods.

You are vastly confusing the people and the companies/organizations. It goes without saying EQ was a fluke that even most of the design team couldn't believe they had gotten so lucky. (Most of the fun mechanics were mistakes) It goes without saying that any side spins of people involved with that and the horrible management/design/company practices they were taught in the early 2000 era before McQuaid and Butler split to form Sigil, created one of the worst creative work environments in the history of the MMORPG genre, and then spread once those people left. Rich Vogel and Gordon Walton to Bioware-Austin for SWTOR. McQuaid and Butler to Sigil for Vanguard. Which paved the way for more inbred SOE ladder climbers that learned in the same fashion and continued the mess... Alan Crosby and Georgeson. Danuser to 38 and now back again. Danuser just openly fucks with everyone when even his old employees know better and shake their heads.

This game will be a disaster of epic proportions. And it isn't because of SOE, it's because SOE never cleaned house enough back in 2004 and later kept the door shut on these absolutely clueless talentless, hacks.

Now, with that said, had any of these folks had their ass held to the fire of accountability, I could "hope", even for a minute, they would actually learn from their mistakes rather than lip serve the entire MMORPG community time and time again. That never happened. WithANYof these idiots. (Except possibly Brad McQuaid... what happened to him * May * have broken through that barrier to help him realize he isn't a god of game design, that he was luckier than fuck and needs to listen to others on his team. He is just a designer now. Which is a good thing. Unfortunately the people above him are just as fucked up as before.

Quaid · Jul 26, 2013

Out of curiosity Ut, which developers/companies/whatever specifically do you have faith in, and why? Just wondering, cuz you seem to have a lot of knowledge about the players in the industry - something I severely lack.

tad10 · Jul 26, 2013

Utnayan_sl said:
This game will be a disaster of epic proportions.

I think you should wait for such a pronouncement until the 2nd.

As to the rest: maybe Blizzard has the worlds best development/management environment, I have no idea, I still wouldn't play any modern Blizzard game unless I was paid to. I don't care who creates the games I play, just that I find them fun, Sigil was, by all accounts, a toxic environment, I still enjoyed the hell out of Vanguard. So we'll see what's what next week.

Edit: I'll add a third point - the time is ripe, very ripe, for a new big MMO. Perhaps you're right that it won't be EQN, then again maybe not: lightning does strike twice sometimes.

Quaid · Jul 26, 2013

Blizzard just bought itself back from Vivendi. I'm not gonna pretend to know which of the two is more responsible for the current state of WoW's gameplay model... But I'm hoping this might bring 'old blizzard' back.

tad10 · Jul 26, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Blizzard just bought itself back from Vivendi. I'm not gonna pretend to know which of the two is more responsible for the current state of WoW's gameplay model... But I'm hoping this might bring 'old blizzard' back.

Old Blizzard left somewhere between the release of Diablo II and the WoW 1.8 patch changes when they realized they could make more money selling to Timmy than to hardcore gamers.

Utnayan · Jul 26, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Out of curiosity Ut, which developers/companies/whatever specifically do you have faith in, and why? Just wondering, cuz you seem to have a lot of knowledge about the players in the industry - something I severely lack.

Not a lot in this genre to be honest. Which sucks because I really want to get involved with a good game again in the MMORPG space. But in other genres:

Ken Levine, Mikael Kasurinen, Todd Howard, and David Cage.

Ken Levine topping that list. The guy is an incredible designer and puts magic touches on those little things that other publishers would say, "Why the hell are you putting money into something the player will see for 3 minutes"... To which I can see his response being, "I am putting even more money into 45 more of these 3 minute little segments that the player may * Never * see." A quick example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piS5Wc9rHU4

Quaid · Jul 26, 2013

tad10_sl said:
Old Blizzard left somewhere between the release of Diablo II and the WoW 1.8 patch changes when they realized they could make more money selling to Timmy than to hardcore gamers.

Your definition of when WoW got bad is vastly different than most people man... I know what you're talking about, but WoW was pretty decent until WotLK. (Incidentally, released 1 year after Vivendi acquisition iirc)

Utnayan · Jul 26, 2013

^^ Blizzard has been with Vivendi since 1998. If anything, the only thing holding the quality together * was * Vivendi. I would blame the Activision-Blizzard merger way more than I would place blame on Vivendi. With Vivendi selling over 50% control of Activision Blizzard, it doesn't bode well.

tad10 · Jul 26, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Your definition of when WoW got bad is vastly different than most people man... I know what you're talking about, but WoW was pretty decent until WotLK. (Incidentally, released 1 year after Vivendi acquisition iirc)

I played WoW for a little under a year after that patch went live and watched the fun gradually diminish - I'm told the raid game continued to be fun until WotLK, but I rarely raid. But 1.8 is when Blizzard said fuck you to emergent gameplay.

Utnayan_sl said:
^^ Blizzard has been with Vivendi since 1998. If anything, the only thing holding the quality together * was * Vivendi. I would blame the Activision-Blizzard merger way more than I would place blame on Vivendi. With Vivendi selling over 50% control of Activision Blizzard, it doesn't bode well.

This is pretty spot on.

Soygen · Jul 26, 2013

What were some examples of 'emergent' prior to 1.8 in WoW?

Nirgon · Jul 26, 2013

The "Goons" also stole our guild name on Rift, only to be rightfully smote by our Forum Legal Team, where they cried up a storm about it and went to another server.

And blew donkey balls.

The End.

PS: I'm not worried about some bullshit squad of Reddit readers in an MMO PvP setting.

Queue up some raid finder and stay away from non-WoW threads. I'm not in there every 2 pages shitting on everything. Unless, ya know, you want that.

tad10 · Jul 26, 2013

Soygen_sl said:
What were some examples of 'emergent' prior to 1.8 in WoW?

Slow weapons were better. Which was unintended.
You could split linked mobs though that was nerfed before 1.8.
Hunter pets. Blizzard didn't realize the extent to which hunters would go to create a stable of special pets. So specials were nerfed around 1.12 or something.
Wall climbing. For those if us who liked exploring.

probably more but those come immediately to mind

Quaid · Jul 26, 2013

tad10_sl said:
Slow weapons were better. Which was unintended.
You could split linked mobs though that was nerfed before 1.8.
Hunter pets. Blizzard didn't realize the extent to which hunters would go to create a stable of special pets. So specials were nerfed around 1.12 or something.
Wall climbing. For those if us who liked exploring.

probably more but those come immediately to mind

All those nerfs fucking sucked... Especially since I played warrior/hunter as my PVP alts. That alterac valley wolf was insane amounts of fun... and the arcanite reaper nerf made me not even want to play my warrior.

Quaid · Jul 26, 2013

Utnayan_sl said:
^^ Blizzard has been with Vivendi since 1998. If anything, the only thing holding the quality together * was * Vivendi. I would blame the Activision-Blizzard merger way more than I would place blame on Vivendi. With Vivendi selling over 50% control of Activision Blizzard, it doesn't bode well.

Ah ok thanks for the education. Always assumed blizzard were the good guys and Vivendi shat up WoW.

tad10 · Jul 26, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
All those nerfs fucking sucked... Especially since I played warrior/hunter as my PVP alts. That alterac valley wolf was insane amounts of fun... and the arcanite reaper nerf made me not even want to play my warrior.

I played emerald dream for a month or two just so I could access old-school hunter pets. Too bad the idiot Goons fucked up the PvP server population.

Just think, this time next week we'll be able to argue the revealed game mechanics. Going to be a long six 1/2 days until then.

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jul 26, 2013

DickTrickle_sl said:
I would totally burn the forest down first chance I got. The more people it made angry, the more likely I would be to repeat it. I am a fuckhead.

Well hopefully you can do that. But hopefully some older boy can just walk up to you and decapitate you and steal all your stuff for being a fuckhead. That's how a true sandbox should work. Everyone is happy. Sort of.

Azeth_sl said:
I stop playing games when I have everything I want. I find it totally illogical to buy anything that can be obtained in-game.

Stopped playing Vanguard 3 months after it released

Me too. But in Vanguard it didn't really matter, there was a limit. In EQ, the game was unlimited. It constantly grew with each expansion and the expansions kept coming and coming. That meant that players were competing with each other to keep up with the joneses and stay on the cutting edge. If a new expansion was due next week, then players would be sure to grind out that last few levels to make sure they were at the level cap in time, and camp that last few items they needed - or whatever.

As soon as you start giving people a helping hand in a game like that, it just becomes battle of the wallets. And that's totally lame.

tad10 · Jul 26, 2013

Speaking of Vanguard this was pointed out last week on the OVF/Offtopic

Quote from Dave Georgeson which can be found in a interview he did with TTH:
http://eqhammer.com/preview/everquest-next-story-so-far

"Wait until you see spellweaving in the next EverQuest," Georgeson teased. "I've said too much but you've never played a game like it. I can promise you that."

Granted spellweaving could mean a lot of things, but my take on it is something that they originally wanted scorcs in VG to be able to do which was combine 2 or more different elemental spells to make a more powerful spell with interesting effects IE: combine an earth and water spell to make a huge mudball hit your target to do damage, possible stun/snare them for a period of time. Sigil scrapped it when they couldn't get it to work correctly and had to get VG out the door, thus we got the sorc we have today.

Seems like a reasonable guess to me.

Phred_sl · Jul 26, 2013

Lost Ranger_sl said:
Yep. Scrapped entirely was the last I heard.

Edit: I think they are starting over on something new that will probably still be called "Titan", but whatever they were working on must of been weapons grade ass.

Actually the rumor has it that it was geared towards a subscription model and Blizzard sees the writing on the wall.

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jul 26, 2013

Taking stuff from Vanguard is a great start. The original combat system was amazing, very slow, very tactical, like Magic the Gathering. Then they scrapped it and it was never seen again

If some of those ideas still remain and are used it could be really interesting.

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