It's pathetic that after 10 years, developers still don't understand how to keep people playing their games. Bioware spent 200 million on a game that didn't even hold the interest of the most casual of players.
EQ Never
- Thread starter Convo
- Start date
Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 3,644
- -6,335
Me too, however the simple fact that the game is going to be F2P with a cosmetic store tells me that how you look is going to be meaningless, in terms of your actual accomplishments. While there may be some iconic gear, people with deep pockets will be able to 'close the gap' with people who actually earned it.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,518
- 583
This is why I much prefer a class based standard leveling system to a skills system or to a flat system (like EQN). People salivate as that little bar inches up.
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 4,486
- 3,531
Classes and levels just strike chords with people. Skill point based systems are tremendously less impressive when compared, thanks to the idea that advancement is just a number instead of a progression of unlocked abilities. Unless skill point systems also unlock abilities, in which case you are basically creating a level-based system anyway. I enjoy both, but it is pretty easy to see why the public likes levels.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,383
- 276
That is my whole point. The last couple of years MMOs have gotten easier and faster to "max out". Someone mentioned TOR and that was a train wreck for that and other reasons. GW2 hit the same wall about 2 months in when everyone that was semi-serious was in full exotics with the no-lifers already completing the legendaries. Those 8 weeks were meant to last them 6-12 months to implements more longterm content, they've been getting flak and struggling with that since. Instead of retreading these errors in judgment I want SOE to err on the side of caution and make stuff too slow. If the game is fun to play and with no vertical treadmill it's really ok for the top tier to take forever, its not required. But if by some lack of foresight everyone completes tier 4 on 5 classes within 6 weeks at least the tier 5 that takes "too long" buys them time. And even with these precautions I am sure they'll need that time.
But seriously, I don't think anyone has argued it's not still 'scripted'. It just more advanced scripting where mobs aren't making merely binary decisions.
Remember, there's 40 classes to earn and tier up as well.
But if progressing your character ALL there is to do? It will flop if they they don't have enough content to keep people interested once they've got all the classes progressed(or alteast all the ones they're interested in).
You would think with their game design decisions (limited vertical progression) they would understand that there has to be a substantial amount of content beyond progression content. I sort of figured that was the entire point of getting rid of vertical progression, they just wanted to create the 'high end' content from the very beginning instead of having to worry about leveling content.
Ideally (for me), it's impossible to max over like 10ish classes in two years of casual+ play, and impossible to max over 30ish in that time. Keep in mind maxing them all is in no way required in my assumption. That'll be a game where 5 years down the line the players actually have more choices to make, instead of being basically maxed and maxing every new addition as soon as its added. Imo that would be a key element to retention and longevity (assuming the game is fun to play to begin with so people would want to stick with it that long).
Re: scripting vs AI: isnt that the same in the end just divided by how complex it is? I mean does anything in current MMOs even deserve being called AI if their script sums up to "run up to person 1 on hate list, autoattack, use ability 1 and 2 if cooldown over, end"? Just adding a few more layers to that will already make a huge difference, and it seems like SB is supposed to add a ton of layers.
Edit: about levels, maybe if the beta supports the opinion you guys put forth they could in put in dummy levels. PS2 has levels that are really irrelevant for gameplay, they are only to show how much xp the players have earned and give you different title ranks like private, scout, major etc with the appropriate rank decals. Actual character advancement is through points you get for xpand other things, so they not measured by level (extreme example I have a lvl3 char I really never played with 2k certs just for logging in most days).
I'm guessing that one of the ways they aim to solve this problem of players getting to max whatever and consuming all the content is with the procedural generation and fancy schmancy artificial intelligence.
For example: A group is out in the forest fighting mobs, protecting the lumberjacks. The first few encounters are single mobs or small groups of weak opponents, which the group takes care of without much trouble. The system recognizes this, and as the players continue to be successful the mobs grow in number and/or get smarter/stronger, based on the players' success in dealing with the prior encounters.
In other words: The system recognizes that you took care of that goblin lieutenant and his squad of soldiers without much trouble, so now let's see if you can handle the same but with a couple wizards thrown into the mix.
I think they could potentially tailor the difficulty to each individual group in this fashion. No matter how tiered up (or whatevs) you and your group are, the procedural generation can continually be throwing that extra curveball at you that continues to make the experience challenging and rewarding. Due to the procedural generation you don't often make it to the point where you're always wiping the floor with what the system throws at you.
For example: A group is out in the forest fighting mobs, protecting the lumberjacks. The first few encounters are single mobs or small groups of weak opponents, which the group takes care of without much trouble. The system recognizes this, and as the players continue to be successful the mobs grow in number and/or get smarter/stronger, based on the players' success in dealing with the prior encounters.
In other words: The system recognizes that you took care of that goblin lieutenant and his squad of soldiers without much trouble, so now let's see if you can handle the same but with a couple wizards thrown into the mix.
I think they could potentially tailor the difficulty to each individual group in this fashion. No matter how tiered up (or whatevs) you and your group are, the procedural generation can continually be throwing that extra curveball at you that continues to make the experience challenging and rewarding. Due to the procedural generation you don't often make it to the point where you're always wiping the floor with what the system throws at you.
+1 bro there was lots of gear in EQ that only a couple people on a server had for a long time. I'm sure others got them eventually.
Hopefully.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,383
- 276
Easy, there is only one wizard that even teaches it. Find him, jump through his many hoops, get your sidegrade situationally better spell... not everyone will do it. Have dozens such wizards, depending on which hoops each player jumps their spells differ.
You have to hunt down spells, that's how, there are some spells that don't come from tiering up.
You're never getting this feeling back, and as long as you continue to search for it you will continue to be disappointed. You felt that way because at the time you didn't have the cynical viewpoint that all good gear is camped, or you get carried to it by the other 39+ raid members (which is the reality and NOT that the player was a god or special in any way). So unless you can wipe your memory and regain innocence you will never feel that way again. This is the reality for most things that were cool in everquest but reality is an unpopular opinion on these forums.
Pre dyes I remember everytime I saw a Cleric in Full Purple Plate you instantly knew he was tearing up the planes. Again in kunark with the cobalt etc. It was very distinct.
Top 5 memory for me was my first char ever, a barbarian warrior, venturing out and dying over and over again because I didn't know how to play the game. Finally I figured out how to attack, and I must have been level 3 or something when a lvl 29 warrior in crafted came up and said he just got his crafted and could give me his bronze armor. I thought it was the wolf talking to me until I turned around and saw this guy standing there in full blue steel armor and I jizzed myself. He gave me his bronze armor and I obviously leveled into blackburrow quickly. He was a good friend of mine in EQ from that point on.
June or July of '99
June or July of '99
Xevy
Log Wizard
- 8,671
- 3,858
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 4,486
- 3,531
I feel like the measuring of others based solely on appearance will certainly still exist to some degree, but like much of the stuff that's old hat, they are moving away from it and creating a new experience, which is not necessarily a bad thing after many years of the same old shit.
I think what will become more prevalent on recognizing the prowess of another player is watching (or hearing about) a group taking on some big bad mob with skill and grace, as in: 'The other day three [insert creature here] warlords came out of the woodwork and attacked that guys group, and they smoked all three! I've never seen a group be able to handle eventwowarlords. They must know what they're doing.'
In other words, I think players will recieve more recognition based on their ability to handle what's thrown at them, rather than their perserverance to log hours upon hours of game time and acquire the best equipment.
But surely you're still going to get you're jimmies rustled occasionally by the player with the flaming sword.
I think what will become more prevalent on recognizing the prowess of another player is watching (or hearing about) a group taking on some big bad mob with skill and grace, as in: 'The other day three [insert creature here] warlords came out of the woodwork and attacked that guys group, and they smoked all three! I've never seen a group be able to handle eventwowarlords. They must know what they're doing.'
In other words, I think players will recieve more recognition based on their ability to handle what's thrown at them, rather than their perserverance to log hours upon hours of game time and acquire the best equipment.
But surely you're still going to get you're jimmies rustled occasionally by the player with the flaming sword.
Lleauaric
Sparkletot Monger
- 4,058
- 1,823
Yeah.. That's the trade off with f2p, you can't really pimp out in the nexus collecting inspects. The $$ will come from the cosmetics... At least I think. Not sure where else they can make the cash. I think if they let us know a little more about where they plan on making money with this game, it would probably tell us more than a combat doc.
I would think they would have to limit it to armor, selling weapons that are so tied to a characters power would be to akin to p2w. Maybe they plan on making cash from the percentage of stuff made from player studio.. Idk. The other thing is you know they are going to have an optional subscription for players. What benefits will that have? Ability to own land and build a house, obviously. Additional character slots? Additional paper doll slots? Bank space? Idk... To me that's the scary part.. This game has a huge staff and a massive budget.. How do they plan on making all that money back?
Edit: something just occurred to me.. They can still have iconic armor sets AND make money off cosmetics. Simply include cosmetic slots for each piece. Each time you get a new piece of equipment, you will want to pimp it out.
I would think they would have to limit it to armor, selling weapons that are so tied to a characters power would be to akin to p2w. Maybe they plan on making cash from the percentage of stuff made from player studio.. Idk. The other thing is you know they are going to have an optional subscription for players. What benefits will that have? Ability to own land and build a house, obviously. Additional character slots? Additional paper doll slots? Bank space? Idk... To me that's the scary part.. This game has a huge staff and a massive budget.. How do they plan on making all that money back?
Edit: something just occurred to me.. They can still have iconic armor sets AND make money off cosmetics. Simply include cosmetic slots for each piece. Each time you get a new piece of equipment, you will want to pimp it out.
Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 3,644
- -6,335
I think this is really what they're hoping for, in trying to make the players skill or aptitude matter more than have the most +Stats gear.
I think there's a lot of valid concern of whether players will accept such a method for determining 'status'. People have enjoyed looking the coolest, having the strongest gear, being the highest level, having the most AAs, etc. Whether people want to admit it or not, a lot the draw of being a hardcore player is being a 'have' above the 'have not'. We've seen it a lot in this thread, where people complain that epic gear is just handed out in modern MMOs (despite the fact that the top 1% still getmuch bettergear). And that's (atleast partly) why hardcore players want the game to be 'difficult', so they have a method to distinguish themselves from who they view as chaff.
I agree with you though, being the best EverQuest (and most vertical progression MMOs after it) wasn't really about being the most skilled - it was usually about having the most time, the most patience, and the most friends. It will be interesting to see how players who played for over a year will deal with not doing X more DPS or having Y more HP than someone who just started playing a few weeks ago.
I think there's certainly merit to their goal. Using League of Legends as yet another example, I've gotten to Platinum ranking in just a few hundred games - whereas some people are stuck in Bronze despite playingthousandsof games. And then there are people who can get to Diamond or higher in less than 100 games. Skill should matter more than just time invested. We'll have to wait and see if they can create a combat system robust enough for players to really distinguish themselves to that level.