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Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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You're probably right and I don't have the answer unfortunately. I guess I am just hoping that people that are much smarter than I am, sitting in some game design office, will have an answer for this problem.
There are a number of solutions out there. Take a skill based system. You could go for slow advancement there, but you have to make the game good enough so you don't run into macro leveling like UO and Darkfall.
Randin
Trakanon Raider
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I do definitely prefer the one hotbar system over the five-to-nine hotbars of the WoW-derived model. However, my personal ideal would be a game with two hotbars: one devoted to combat abilities, and one for non-combat utility (which would, of course, actually require the game tohavenon-combat abilities, which developers seem to have an issue with including). I generally like gw2, but it does become a little annoying when I'm having to weigh the worth of replacing one of my already limited combat skills with something like a speed buff.
It would be easier if you could keymap Utility Skill loadouts in GW2 for when you're out of combat.
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
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Grim, for fuck's sake. First of all, who are these people you think are ruining their own experience by "rushing to the endgame"? Clearly anyone who levels faster than you is "rushing to the endgame" and "not enjoying the journey." That's one of the laws of MMO forum retardation. If you go to the EQ progression forums, right now, you will see hundreds of posts by the same two people repeating this exact mantra. People who have outrageous /played times yet are stuck at level 40 and put out post after post that basically stay STOP HAVING FUN YOUR WAY. SOE SHOULD FORCE YOU TO HAVE FUN *MY* WAY. THE TIME LOCK SHOULD BE AT *LEAST* 3 YEARS PER EXPANSION!
I only wish this was hyperbole.
If players feel compelled to skip huge portions of the game that they might enjoy just to reach the part that they like the most, sure, that's a little odd. But isn't that simply the game's fault for not making all aspects equally entertaining for everyone? (examine the ridiculousness of that statement and how it reflects on your constantly repeated argument, please) For the most part, the entire leveling process in any post-EQ MMO forces you to see every inch of the game anyway. So why is rushing bad? Are you concerned with the health risks inherent in sitting long hours? Hell, what do you even call rushing? Is it leveling faster than you do? Playing 8 hours a time instead of 2? Not stopping to gaze longingly at each sunset? Not taking time out to splash around in a pond, or perhaps roleplay a bit at the local inn?
Here's a question that I ask everyone who ever says this nonsense about enjoying the journey: How do you know that they are not enjoying the journey? I assume you think they are hating every second they spend leveling and just want to get it over with. Well did it ever occur to you that maybe they enjoy the journey so much that they play it for hours on end until there is no more journey left, and then they are stuck with nothing to do except whatever endgame treadmill exists until new content is released? Or, Xenu forbid, just go do something else for a while?
The problem then has nothing whatsoever to do with people "rushing" at all. It just means that it is impossible to make an infinite amount of static game to enjoy, and therefore you reach a point where the game either has to say THE END and roll credits or it has to rely on repetition that is extended by RNG (loot tables) and/or lockout timers. The thing is, levels vs skills makes NO DIFFERENCE. TSW had no levels, you still played through the game in a mostly linear zone to zone fashion exactly like any other MMO. All content in all games is gated somehow. You have to do A before you can do B. That's all it comes down to. It's only a 'problem' if you game runs A-Z and people can somehow ignore the entire alphabet in between, and last I checked the only way to do that in any MMO in existence ishttp://www.playerauctions.com/- the MMO equivalent of downloading a save game right at the final boss.
But anyway, who the fuck are you to tell people how they should enjoy a game? It's like telling someone they are evil and wrong for fast forwarding past the story scenes in a porno. I'm sure the people who worked on all those pointless scenes feel bad that nobody watches them ever but, they are the idiots who made something that nobody gives a shit about. And this is a relevant metaphor because you said players should be *forced* to play the game exactly one way, the One True Way, as if a MMO was a 500 hour long movie that must be watched beginning to end.
/what a mess
PS: This thread should just be called Make Vanguard Again.
shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
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@Kreugen - i will not speak for who you replied to but I think the issue comes when you have folks that do not enjoy the leveling process and wish it to be shorter. I am certainly one of those that feels the journey is the destination but as you said everyone's journey is different and it certainly should be.
Where we run into problems is how game designs accommodate one style and not the other and some folks get defensive or aggressive.. If folks want to PL their way up great.
What i do not want to see in MMOs is constantly shorter leveling curves. Take RIFT for example I very much enjoyed leveling rift ( the rifts, different zones ( although linear ) and souls and such ) so much so i would have liked 100 levels of that instead of the lobby style end game treadmill thing..
That said, I agree that one should not impose ones idea of "fun" on another.
Where we run into problems is how game designs accommodate one style and not the other and some folks get defensive or aggressive.. If folks want to PL their way up great.
What i do not want to see in MMOs is constantly shorter leveling curves. Take RIFT for example I very much enjoyed leveling rift ( the rifts, different zones ( although linear ) and souls and such ) so much so i would have liked 100 levels of that instead of the lobby style end game treadmill thing..
That said, I agree that one should not impose ones idea of "fun" on another.
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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It's amazing how you were able to actually point out the subject of the conversation, yet totally ignore it in the totality of your rant.
Just to explain. The conversation has been about how the current "level to endgame" paradigm makes it so that a large part of the game is inaccessible without being max level BUT when you are max level, the other large part of the game (Leveling content) is useless. It creates situations where people treat a large part of development effort like "story in pornos" and fast forward through it. For a big part of the population, this creates ghost town-like content. And for the other part, the kind that DOES enjoy the story in pornos, it creates a very limited amount of content to enjoy because a bulk of it post-release goes towards end game (Remember when they actually released....leveling content? Yeah, doesn't happen anymore.)
The "shift" in Paradigm that Grim, Draegan and everyone else has been talking about is making it so very few levels are done to "teach" the game, and the player is then thrust into the world, where leveling is a byproduct of simply playing--in other words, gaining levels would be like getting gear. Kind of like the later levels in D2--they were increases in power, but after a point, it was no stronger than getting another piece of gear. In this "new paradigm", a level 50 and a level 75 could group together the same way someone in blues could group with someone in purples. Their level number wouldn't reach some magical point where they could now hit the dragon, or not have it resist every fucking spell. Rather they could always hit the dragon, but the extra levels would let them live a little longer, have a bit more mana, and a bit more regen (ect ect)
In other words, everyone's been talking about the designers forcing this dichotomy, not the players. Why have hard separations on when a zone is useful? Let all the zones, always be useful. It's just another way of saying all content should be unified in design, rather than modular by level/game aspect like it is now (Game aspect=PvP/Solo/Group/Raid).
Yes, I know the above is easier said than done. "Open world" type games have their own issues...And even if you design it well, some zones will simply be lower level, while some higher end--but you can make that a TON grayer than we have now. Right now, once you're out of the small window of zone usefulness that zone is done. If you design with the above in mind, you can make that "window" where a player enjoys the zone VERY large. This way all of your content remains useful through the life cycle of the game. The ultimate goal should be designing content that is part of the world, not just some stepping stone to get to the "end game".
Why don't you view his post as a possible question a designer would ask about his own ideas for an MMO? "How do I keep people logged in, having fun and spending many hours in my game". Think about it, they spend hundreds of man hours designing, developing, creating artwork, mobs, and quests for a zone that your average power gamer will smoke through in about 3 hours. If I was looking at it from the point of designing a game, I would want to somehow "force" a player to slow down and spend time in that zone, with the added benefit of spreading players throughout my game world, and not all jammed into the top 3-5 zones while all but ignoring the other 66 I designed because they are not max level/raiding zones. It's a legitimate question.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Easy there cowboy, you misread my post and where I am coming from. I was responding to the general tone of the last few pages and telling people what would have to be done (imo) to accomplish this "enjoy the journey" they have been discussing.
"Rushing to the endgame" has become the norm in the industry, by the design of the devs and the play style of the majority of the players. You know that and I know that is the norm now. Why do you think that is? Because I told them so? Give me a break.
I offered an alternative way to bypass that norm and still give players a sense of a accomplishment by using horizontal progression that trivializes the notion of standard levels. That alternative is nothing like Vanguard.
Just look at how much content is wasted by most modern mmos, GW2 is a great example. Most players rush to 80 and then stand around in Lions Arch looking for a FoTM group. The modern endgame as we know is just a lobby for instanced dungeons. Some people like that and some don't. What many of us are asking for is an alternative style of game that expands our options as we play, as opposed to being funneled into a lobby for the same ugly rooms. If you like lobby games then you are a lucky player, you have plenty to chose from.
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
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No Lithose my post did not miss any point that you are making because your point has next to nothing to do what Grim1 has repeated in multiple posts or with what I am talking about.
A "large portion of the game" is not inaccessible until you are max level. A tiny fucking corner of the game, at best, is left for you as a max-level treadmill. For most of EQs life, that meant one raid zone. In WoW and Rift and later EQ2, it was rehashed versions of the same dungeons you visited while you were leveling, plus raid zones. Now, EQ2 and Rift and some others have something like what you describe with mentoring. If your friend is in some lower level zone, you can drop down to his level and help him. That seems to cover what you are discussing pretty well.
Now, if what you mean is that ALL content is relevant ALL the time.. well, that just makes no fucking sense because this is a thread about Everquest 3 and not Some High Concept Sandbox Hyper Reality Simulator 3000. This shitpile of a thread should at least try to stick somewhat within the parameters that the name "Everquest" suggests to you. I guess if you had no stats or skills or any RPG trappings of any kind you could have a game where Befallen and Veeshan's Peak are open for exploration the moment you log in to the game. But why would anyone go kill rats when they could be killing dragons? In fact, what the fuck is the POINT in such a game?
EDIT: Well even if Grim isn't the one who started it, the point still stands. Complaining that people are not "enjoying the journey" because there's an endgame is fucking idiotic. I'm sorry, I do not play Call of Duty just to reach the final boss. I play Call of Duty to _play the game_, and then by result of _playing the game_ I reach the final boss. MMOs are no different.
Even if you make your MMO as flat, horizontal or however the fuck you want to define it, there's still a final boss. That being the last dude you haven't killed yet, in whatever random ass order you took in your meandering path through this no-level no-stats no-progression MMO.
A "large portion of the game" is not inaccessible until you are max level. A tiny fucking corner of the game, at best, is left for you as a max-level treadmill. For most of EQs life, that meant one raid zone. In WoW and Rift and later EQ2, it was rehashed versions of the same dungeons you visited while you were leveling, plus raid zones. Now, EQ2 and Rift and some others have something like what you describe with mentoring. If your friend is in some lower level zone, you can drop down to his level and help him. That seems to cover what you are discussing pretty well.
Now, if what you mean is that ALL content is relevant ALL the time.. well, that just makes no fucking sense because this is a thread about Everquest 3 and not Some High Concept Sandbox Hyper Reality Simulator 3000. This shitpile of a thread should at least try to stick somewhat within the parameters that the name "Everquest" suggests to you. I guess if you had no stats or skills or any RPG trappings of any kind you could have a game where Befallen and Veeshan's Peak are open for exploration the moment you log in to the game. But why would anyone go kill rats when they could be killing dragons? In fact, what the fuck is the POINT in such a game?
EDIT: Well even if Grim isn't the one who started it, the point still stands. Complaining that people are not "enjoying the journey" because there's an endgame is fucking idiotic. I'm sorry, I do not play Call of Duty just to reach the final boss. I play Call of Duty to _play the game_, and then by result of _playing the game_ I reach the final boss. MMOs are no different.
Even if you make your MMO as flat, horizontal or however the fuck you want to define it, there's still a final boss. That being the last dude you haven't killed yet, in whatever random ass order you took in your meandering path through this no-level no-stats no-progression MMO.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I don't see it as people not enjoying the journey, I think the journey has more become about solo questing with the occasional group and max level being the only part that really matters. As opposed to some of my examples earlier about being side tracked with the leveling process to camp say Jboots for my Wizard. My journey to max level took a hard left during that time because it was more important to me than leveling. I think games need to get back to adding cool things that make a difference in your class that deviate from the actual treadmill. That's the discussion Draegan was trying to make. It just turned into a bunch of other stuff hah! I think the biggest thing is to just understand games can no longer be made to appease all. It's just not working. Specialize in one area and make it great. I'm all for a mix of these games being made. I think as players we would benefit more in the end.
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
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Okay, I see more what you are saying now. It took a while to digest because it is ridiculous.
What you are saying is, if the original Everquest you reached level 10 and from then on all monsters are level 10. Every zone that was level 10-50 is now all just level 10. So you have 30 some odd zones of equal challenge and you are free to go wherever.
This solves absolutely nothing. It's a solution for a non existent problem.
What you are saying is, if the original Everquest you reached level 10 and from then on all monsters are level 10. Every zone that was level 10-50 is now all just level 10. So you have 30 some odd zones of equal challenge and you are free to go wherever.
This solves absolutely nothing. It's a solution for a non existent problem.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Personally, I don't care how people play their game. What bothers me is the huge amount of time and money wasted by devs creating worlds and encounters that are rarely used. And then those devs funneling everyone into a lobby where we all have to do dailies of the same dungeons over and over to advance our toons. Really, being level 100 plus in FoTM in GW2 is ridiculous.
The standard notion of levels is what helped cause this issue. Leveling is usually the easiest way to increase a players power. If you take that power increase away from leveling and give it to other systems, then by design you are forcing players to rethink the whole concept. That isn't telling them how to play their game. It is just changing the way people think, and that is a good thing.
The standard notion of levels is what helped cause this issue. Leveling is usually the easiest way to increase a players power. If you take that power increase away from leveling and give it to other systems, then by design you are forcing players to rethink the whole concept. That isn't telling them how to play their game. It is just changing the way people think, and that is a good thing.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think a lot of unused content can be fixed by just implementing a design I brought up before. If a lowbi dungeon goes unused let the mobs slowly gain power/levels. Their skills/difficulty would advance along with that. No need to let all that work become a ghost town.
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
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How many dev hours do you think are spent on the cutscene that pops up the first time you load a game, and then never see again? How many hours do you think they spend on the well crafted lobby on MAP01 in some_fps that you blow through in half a second because there are no monsters there?
Did you not play TSW? No levels bro. Pure item progression and grinding skill points. And it felt exactly like playing any other MMO. Do everything in an area, move to the next, never go back. I'm not sure why you feel it is so important to recycle. I don't feel some pressing need to go see Durotar again. And if I did, I can always make a new character.
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
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Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I quit WoW when MC was the only raid zone. I am talking about large open world dungeons...People feel they are a waste of Dev time because players will eventually level past them. That is one way to keep them being visited
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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GW2's deleveling system could advantage of their world and give players endless options. But they threw it out and decided to go the lobby route. It's not impossible to do, it just requires devs to stop copying the existing lobby endgame.