EQ Never

Blackwulf

N00b
999
18
I just hope they truly do away with xp bars. Why should I get fireball of ?berness 3 just because I killed enough gnolls? Make all skill advancement based on specific achievement. I should have to go to the tower of elven spellery to learn that spell, and only after making them want to teach me somehow. If they made all skills in the game only attainable by filling certain quested/adventured requirements, there wouldn't be a need for bear ass collecting quests or grind camps.

The same should be the case for any tradeskill. Want to be able to build castles? Better go find a job as an apprentice carpenter, who is prefably another PC. This could be mutually beneficial. Crafting with him increases his production speed, and he rewards you with gold until you organically gain enough knowledge to move on by yourself to the next level of skill. Player interdependence blah blah.
I like these ideas. I'd play that game.

Non combat related skills (or what I call SOCIAL skills) should be available to anyone, provided they fulfill the in game requirements. These requirements should be extremely high, which would promote interaction between players. Bind affinity spells, resurrection spells, travel spells; it should take massive time investments to get multiple numbers of these abilities. Having to ask people for buffs, summons, teleports, rezes and other buffs was a key part of how I met people in early EQ.
I don't like the idea of everyone being able to do everything. I think if you make certain choices, it should close certain doors, while opening other ones. I like the idea of adventure requirements to find those doors, though rather than a skill tree you plop points into when you hit "k".
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,585
7,907
I don't like the idea of everyone having the same abilities either, but I am talking about massively prohibitive amounts of time to be able to both resurrect AND teleport. Say resurrection is taught by the Council of Clerics at the very upper echelon of favour with that group. It wouldn't be a big deal if for the whole game you have been taking healerish type skill decisions... But if you have mainly been gaining favor with the Council of Wizards, for that teleport spell, I bet along the way you pissed the clerics off somehow, reducing your favour with that rival group. So now you have to prove yourself to them through your deeds, which may (will) cause you to lose facton with your Wizard buddies. Do you want to risk that?

I mean, the goal of this system is to encourage social interaction. If you have put the time in to collect 2 or 3 of these abilities without forging friendships, I don't think it's the developers fault anymore.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,585
7,907
What would be really neat is if certain non-advancement critical skill quests were given by NPCs is certain player-capturable castles/cities. For example, this game's Call of the Hero is taught by an NPC in Adventuremore Keep. Adventuremore Keep could be held by Guild X. To attain this skill you would have to gain entry to this castle either via good will with the occupying guild, negotiation, infiltration, or straight up warfare.
 

lothix_sl

shitlord
3
0
If EQ Next team just copied EVE Online and re-skinned it with a Norrath fantasy setting, I would play the heck out of it.

Mapping ship hulls to classes could be hilarious, for example: transport ships - it would be awesome to have your character jump into a mule animal, and have your friends protect you while you hauled supplies to your guild's outpost built around a quarry on the outskirts of uncharted, player controlled territory.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
I do think the vehicle based classes are something that should be explored. You can surely use suits of gear in their place in any case. I think skill acquisition speed and methodology wouldn't be kosher for many MMO players though. Having a job system ala FF Tactics has similarities as well.

EVE's pilot roles and their related interdependencies are nicely structured, but they're nowhere near as complex from moment to moment as the EQ/WoW style classes are. Gameplay is more about preparation and group organization than individual potential, and that's pretty boring really.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
that a player should be able to log in for a couple hours and get the same rewards that I do. .
This is that EQ mentality that really makes it hard to discuss rationally. How does the quote go? "It is not enough for me to succeed. Others must fail." Tad was the king of this. One example was the whole sitting and pulling vs. dungeon crawling. He felt that sitting and pulling was superior to dungeon crawling. So when I suggested he find a few like minded individuals and sit and pull (which you can do in most modern game dungeons mind you), he scoffed and said that it's meaningless unless everybody else has to do it as well. He didn't really enjoy the concept. What he enjoyed was everybody else being forced to do it as well.

No, but should everything in life be fair?
This isn't life though and you don't need to fuck the guy on content plateaus. I mean you're already going to take 1 day of real life time to accomplish what the other guy does in 5 days. Do you really need to tack on ~more~ of a penalty out of just spite? Does it really make the content less fun for you if somebody else can do in 5 days what it took you 1 day to do?

The fact that you guys think it's okay for someone to getadditionallyfucked on top of the fucking he's already taking is hilarious. There's a minimal amount of time investment for any hobby really that should be expected to be fair sure. Nobody is arguing for the other extreme where you can just log in and instantly kill the last boss on day 1. People who have less time to play still want to work for their achievements. They just want to be able to, y'know, eventually actually do it.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
This is that EQ mentality that really makes it hard to discuss rationally. How does the quote go? "It is not enough for me to succeed. Others must fail." .
Not that I agree with Tad...But if you don't understand that it's entirely rational for wealth/success/fame to have a good deal of relativity involved, then maybe you should go watch the Incredibles again.

Nobody is arguing for the other extreme where you can just log in and instantly kill the last boss on day 1. People who have less time to play still want to work for their achievements. They just want to be able to, y'know, eventually actually do it.
This is fair...Time is commodity to, having something first is a huge draw, probably the most important draw for relative wealth.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
Not that I agree with Tad...But if you don't understand that it's entirely rational for wealth/success/fame to have a good deal of relativity involved, then maybe you should go watch the Incredibles again.
I perfectly understand it. It's just hard to discuss the intrinsic value of something when you're operating from that point of view.

To use a terrible analogy. Let's take a boat ride. Who doesn't love a good boat ride? Now imagine if you could only take that boat ride if you had to sit at the dock for 10 hours beforehand. Boat ride is the same, you just have an arbitrary 10 hour waiting period to go on it. Same boat ride, nothing has changed. You go sploosh sploosh for a few minutes. That's all.

It doesn't make theactivityitself any more fun but because you had to leap through a retarded hurdle to get to do it, it does change yourperceptionof it. You worked hard for that fucking boat ride! And that's why it's so hard to discuss. Because while I want to talk about the activity, Tad and co. had their view skewed by the perception.

More to the point of the quote and the discussion I find ridiculous, does your enjoyment of the boat ride diminish if somebody else instead of waiting for 10 hours on a Saturday waited 2 hours every weekday? The EQ mindset says that the guy who waits 2 hours every day shouldn't get to go on the boat. He didn't work hard enough for it. If he really wanted that boat ride he'd ship his kids off to grandma's, tell his wife no snuggling today and sit at the fucking dock until he got his boat ride.

I'm not saying that the mentality iswrongmind you. Everybody has their thing. I'm mostly going to remind you that kind of mentality has limited marketability when it comes to gaming. You're not going to get triple A development with full support teams and blah blah blah. You'll get Darkfall levels of polish and development at best.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,585
7,907
This is that EQ mentality that really makes it hard to discuss rationally. How does the quote go? "It is not enough for me to succeed. Others must fail." Tad was the king of this. One example was the whole sitting and pulling vs. dungeon crawling. He felt that sitting and pulling was superior to dungeon crawling. So when I suggested he find a few like minded individuals and sit and pull (which you can do in most modern game dungeons mind you), he scoffed and said that it's meaningless unless everybody else has to do it as well. He didn't really enjoy the concept. What he enjoyed was everybody else being forced to do it as well.
I seriously doubt that was the meat and potatoes of the argument. I'm sure he was arguing for the forced 'social' aspect that grind camps bring to the game. Camping and pulling means a lot of static/downtime, which equals time to socialize. No rational person would be a proponent of static xp grinds unless this was the core of their argument. It's really the only benefit to that kind of dungeon. In which case, he is pretty much correct. If both systems for 'dungeon' play existed in a game (instanced/linear dungeons with a clear 'end goal' vs static grind camps) nobody in their right mind would put themselves through the agony of a grind camp. Thus, people would need to have grind camps as their only option to promote social interaction in dungeons.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
This is that EQ mentality that really makes it hard to discuss rationally. How does the quote go? "It is not enough for me to succeed. Others must fail." Tad was the king of this. One example was the whole sitting and pulling vs. dungeon crawling. He felt that sitting and pulling was superior to dungeon crawling. So when I suggested he find a few like minded individuals and sit and pull (which you can do in most modern game dungeons mind you), he scoffed and said that it's meaningless unless everybody else has to do it as well. He didn't really enjoy the concept. What he enjoyed was everybody else being forced to do it as well.



This isn't life though and you don't need to fuck the guy on content plateaus. I mean you're already going to take 1 day of real life time to accomplish what the other guy does in 5 days. Do you really need to tack on ~more~ of a penalty out of just spite? Does it really make the content less fun for you if somebody else can do in 5 days what it took you 1 day to do?

The fact that you guys think it's okay for someone to getadditionallyfucked on top of the fucking he's already taking is hilarious. There's a minimal amount of time investment for any hobby really that should be expected to be fair sure. Nobody is arguing for the other extreme where you can just log in and instantly kill the last boss on day 1. People who have less time to play still want to work for their achievements. They just want to be able to, y'know, eventually actually do it.
No one is trying to "fuck the other guy". But look at this in terms of working. What your saying is, employee Joe is at home chilling and work calls him in on his day off. He goes in, works a full shift. Someone calls in and they need him to stay late so he agrees and goes into overtime. Because he came in on his day off AND stayed to work overtime, for that day, he got paid time and a half for the 8 hour shift, and double time for the additional 4 hours making $440.00 dollars that day. He is exhausted, but goes home knowing his hard work helps him pay bills and save a little for Christmas.

Then you have employee Matt who is at home chilling and work calls him. He's on his day off though and doesn't feel like working so he ignores the phone. Now what your stating is that, it's only fair that we shouldn't punish Matt, so even though Joe worked his ass off to earn the big pay check, we should go ahead and pay Matt the same $440.00 that day so were not "fucking him over".

Now here's where you say, "this is a game not a job and Matt and Joe pay the same amount(sub) so they should receive the same rewards". Yes, I understand the argument already. But in a persistent world like a an MMO were the developers are under constant pressure to keep the game entertaining and keeping people logging in and paying that sub fee every month, purchasing new expansions etc...24 hours a day, 7 days a week 365 days a year, that's how the game is. That's what keeps people logging in. The harder you work, the more rewards you get. I don't believe that a game, at least an MMO will work if you give a player who spends 10 hours a week online the same rewards you give the player who spends 25 hours a week online. Then where is the motivation to spend longer in game? And if your not logged in, your not making friends, having fun, raiding, grouping etc. Then it's much easier to just not log in at all. And pretty soon new shiny game "MMO EXTREME" comes out, and you stop playing your current game to go try extreme.
The longer you spend ingame, the more attached you become to your friends and the more invested you become in your character. That cannot happen if you are getting all the rewards the game has to offer in a mere 10 hours a week. It's a self defeated process as a developer. By making all game content accessible regardless of time played per week, your basically developing your games expiration date. You want players logged in and playing as often as they humanly can.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
I don't know dude.. weren't you saying in the Rift thread you're all but done with MMO's? Bored was it? Something about "I don't know if I can keep on playing. 15 minute McDungeons taking an hour each. I'm really getting tired of the entire MMO community being made up of people who would not get past world 1-1 of Mario Bros."

hmm...At least the people posting in this thread know why they are bored with the current crop of MMO's..
Huh? Can you read? It says ---->I'm really getting tired of the entire MMO community being made up of people who would not get past world 1-1 of Mario Bros.<----- How does this invalidate in any way what I said above about people wanting a simulated world to escape their pathetic lives vs a GAME? In fact, it goes hand in hand - the people who want to spend 12 hours a day smelling roses and 'exploring' their way from one dungeon to the next while the rest of the group waits on their fucking slowpoke asses tend to be those exact same bad players I'm talking about. They're okay with taking all fucking day to get something done because they are fucking slow people to begin with. I'm baffled as to why you quoted this, as its pretty much and example of exactly what I was talking about when I said "15 minuteMcDungeonstaking an hour each."

Thanks for helping me make my point, I guess?
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
I perfectly understand it. It's just hard to discuss the intrinsic value of something when you're operating from that point of view.
Nothing has intrinsic value. Everything's value is affected by outside forces (Bottle of water in the desert vs near a clean lake), one of them being perception. Part of the problem of being in an infinite use environment (A place where most goods can be given to everyone) is that it's easy to disregard that inherent truth in the human condition--that things should have some base "value", and it shouldn't matter to one player if another player gets it, as long as some base payment has been applied (Your ten hours of work). But the reality is the one things humans are pretty good at is rationalizing cost vs reward. If your overall cost is perceived as higher, and the reward is the same--the reward becomes more expensive in your eyes, and therefor "unfair", this does cause you to view it as worse. (And, as we all know, the ten hours in one block is obviously a far higher and more difficult "price" than 10 hours split.)

It's in our nature to make these rationalizations--even monkey's do it (There are videos showing how primates perceive fairness.) As for limited marketability...well, again, this always confuses me that people are so sure about this. The highest profitability in gaming right now actually exploits relative wealth a great deal--it's the centerpiece among pay-to-win constructs in the tablet/phone field. Also, the largest growth in the MMO industry came when this model of relative wealth was used more heavily.

I think you're confusing this model with an inherent lack of accessibility--and I don't think that's a very fair comparison so make. Being inaccessible will kill a game, sure. Creating a tiered system where invite the exploitation of these kinds of base feelings? Well, I think if you could marry that to accessibility, you'd have the most marketable type of MMO.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Huh? Can you read? It says ---->I'm really getting tired of the entire MMO community being made up of people who would not get past world 1-1 of Mario Bros.<----- How does this invalidate in any way what I said above about people wanting a simulated world to escape their pathetic lives vs a GAME? In fact, it goes hand in hand - the people who want to spend 12 hours a day smelling roses and 'exploring' their way from one dungeon to the next while the rest of the group waits on their fucking slowpoke asses tend to be those exact same bad players I'm talking about. They're okay with taking all fucking day to get something done because they are fucking slow people to begin with. I'm baffled as to why you quoted this, as its pretty much and example of exactly what I was talking about when I said "15 minuteMcDungeonstaking an hour each."

Thanks for helping me make my point, I guess?
Oh yea..bc the players today are so much better than what we had in games like EQ, UO, DAOC, etc... Its the old school gamers fault you cant get thru a dungeon in 15 mins..news flash dude...the people you're making fun of in this thread are not playing games like Rift...I can read and I'm pretty sure I read you say you're bored with all games. Ever stop and really think why that is? Keep ranting pussy lol
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
I found the exact opposite to be true.

I've played rift and daoc and what-the-fuck-ever. The guys that you'd bullshit about old EQ/UO with (the ones who actually knew what you were talking about, and knew how to respond to the jokes) you could rely on. Except sometimes in the middle of a run where they'd have to afk quick cause the kid set the cat on fire.

Not all the young ones are dumb. Hardly. There's plenty of talent, and i've played with guys ten years younger than me that schooled me in some of these games. But jesus, the bad ones are BAD. They probably were in EQ or DAOC as well I just never grouped with them because... it was EQ and fuck the bads. And I didn't play albion in daoc. lol.

Age doesn't make the players better but it does tend to weed out the worst of the worst. There are exceptions. You do get some exceptionally resilient fuckwads.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
It's silly to say someone who has a gamer philosophy of wanting a game more like original EQ is the player slowing groups up...in reality it's probably more that a lot of players move at a slower pace because they solo a lot more. They don't play within groups as often as they did in EQ days. The more accessible a game is, the higher the rate of bad players. I'm not saying accessibility is a good or bad thing, it's certainly good for revenue..but if anyone can pick the game up and reach max level by solo questing and never interacting with another player, you're always going to have a chance of a retardation in your group. It's more prevalent now than ever in MMO's.
 

Rod-138

Trakanon Raider
1,157
919
Compromise = a system > EQ for finding work/groups and a system similar to EQ for death ? You have your skilled/unskilled divide with harsh death and save downtime for some of the old fellars?