Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)

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Goonsquad Officer
6,113
14,436
man i just watched the intro of woke lemon. erinville is sick of her shit the moment she appears. her voice does sound pretty off. if she wasn't hiding behind the ham fisted accent i imagine she'd sound awful.

having her read lines oposite graha and krile is extra striking. i winder if they made this character as an answer to 'not having a character' like moonbryda these days. But she just sounds (the voice actor dude) sounds goofy.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,664
11,976
Yea but that doesn't jive.
The whole giants story arc was also basically about people don't die when remembered blah blah and you give some amount of reverence to the idea. So it is a bitb dissonant later when you see it manifest in the flesh but then are ok with just turning it all off with no real uncomfortable questions.

Also their entire culture turned out to just be radio from the future? Lol.
There's two parts to it
The first is that their tech is denying people from joining the aetherial sea where the memories do rejoin with everyone else that has died and the whole reincarnation cycle. Instead they are plugged into a Matrix that is fueled by killing more people to power their simulation which is only running at 10%. The second.. if you are one of the queens subjects you go to the Matrix, if you aren't you become soylent green to power the hamsters keeping the lights on. As the lover during the main quest noted he was brought back 3 different times with gaps in between so this is not the most efficient process. How many hundreds or thousands of people need to die to keep a single Alexandrian person running for one life time?

Do their souls and memories return to the aetherial sea by powering down the machines? Probably, since this is not the 13th we are effectively returning Erenville's mom to the proper afterlife and all dead Alexandrians can come too.
 

Koushirou

Log Wizard
<Gold Donor>
5,167
13,059
About them not being alive, maybe it’s me watching too much Star Trek but they’re essentially alive in all the ways that we measure it. They’re intelligent, they’re self-aware, are they conscious? They sure seem like it. It also is in direct confrontation to Graha’s while speech in Endwalker when he confronts Meteoin. Is he a different person because memories were shoved into a different body? Are we the same people because of memories or physical form? Did none of these particular writers read ANY of the fucking philosophy that was the backbone of the previous expac?

Is the whole system fucked up and unnatural? Absolutely. The proper way to handle it would have been a heads up that sorry, we’re not going to replace the batteries again when they run out and they’ll just slowly fade away again…almost like a natural death; We also just had a whole expansion of telling us to respect other peoples’ culture and then a bitch mom, who isn’t even from this culture, tells us to turn it all off as a favor. And she looks so fucking pleased with herself as we do it. The justification for it is weak as fuck and to have us have these touching ass moments right before we just casually throw the switch is insane.
 

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
18,430
7,132
Cutscene before unlocking dungeon 4:
Why the fuck wasn't the defense of the train something interactive? Could have just used the mini game from air force one, or just fucking anything other than just a cutscene.

Would have loved a Rebirth style minigame active on one of the cannons for that.
 
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Chris

Potato del Grande
19,436
-10,732
Man it sounds like woke lemon is lyse to the lyse power. I mean storblood main msq lyse, not post msq "new writer" lyse.

Imm still finishing post msq endwalker so i havent heard the troon yet
I never thought Lyse was bad, but I started in Gridania so you have her throughout the starting zone. May as well be a different character though since she drops the weird accent and cameltoe shorts, still I felt some investment in her.

I just found Ala Migho to be extremely boring, it's not Tulliola? boring though. I do think it's hilarious how they abandoned such a prominent character though, other than the Endwalker cameo.

I hope that they just kill Wut Lamat.
 

Folanlron

Trakanon Raider
2,308
660
What the actual fuck? Zone 6.
Jesus Christ, we, nor most of the Scions would NEVER be okay with just nuking these people. Like, sure, they're made of memories, but they have thought and a sense of self, and all this other shit that generally people consider life. And yeah, we're just cool with wiping them out without even attempting any other solution. Maybe more happens, but goddamn, just getting out of that gondola scene with Graha...how the fuck do you go through that, have that thoughtful talk and then just say "oh well, shame we gotta just turn everyone off."

Also, fuck Erenville's mom. What a fucking bitch. Let's give the peasants one more happy show before we kill them. If they aren't real then WHY THE FUCK DOES IT MATTER

You need to think of it as Ascian Version 2.0, that is what the Endless literally are so wanting to wipe them out cause the only thing they want to do is eat the aether of other reflections.. is nothing new
 

Mao

Trakanon Raider
641
1,593
So I've given this some thought as I keep logging out to take breaks cause holy fuck this game, but. I'll try to give you a short version here. I'll do a long version later if you all want to explore it further.

This story is written by technicians, not artists.

These are people who have studied writing and all the great works. They've dissected and diagramed all the famous stories of history. They have sat in the highest halls of learning being told what are the essential elements of an epic story, what all the ingredients are and what constitutes the broth. They can critique Tolkien and Bradbury, dissect Homer, present the essential elements of Vonnegut, Hemmingway, and Thompson. But they understand nor have experienced any of it.

And so the story is written as a checklist. Hero's Journey, check. Philosophy and meaning of life, check. Opposing beliefs and viewpoints, check. But its all flat and empty cause they are just moving the characters through the checklist as passive participants, not actual drivers of the story that have deep reactions or emotions that resonant with the readers and make us empathize and feel. They do not understand the underpinnings of what they are writing.

These writers are people who have studied writing, but have no life experience and as such have nothing really of their own to relate.
 
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Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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glad I swapped to Jp voices.. its so much better.
Yeah I've been on JP voices the entire time so for me at least the voice is perfectly fine, but I saw the reddit post that compared the final trial cutscene and the english one did sound horrible. Apparently though a lot of the voice acting direction in DT in english is pretty weak with a lot of the scenes not having the right tone and what not so it's not just limited to Wuk Lamat. In JP it's still the good stuff, although the differences between what is spoken and what is written can be jarring at times due to the english localization having a bunch of quirks.
 
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Folanlron

Trakanon Raider
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660
Yeah I've been on JP voices the entire time so for me at least the voice is perfectly fine, but I saw the reddit post that compared the final trial cutscene and the english one did sound horrible. Apparently though a lot of the voice acting direction in DT in english is pretty weak with a lot of the scenes not having the right tone and what not so it's not just limited to Wuk Lamat. In JP it's still the good stuff, although the differences between what is spoken and what is written can be jarring at times due to the english localization having a bunch of quirks.

The VA literally only has 1 "pitch" for the voice so anytime it's sad/excited it's always that same "pitch" which is just annoying as fuck, at least the JP VA tried and did much better work with it.
 

Chris

Potato del Grande
19,436
-10,732
So I've given this some thought as I keep logging out to take breaks cause holy fuck this game, but. I'll try to give you a short version here. I'll do a long version later if you all want to explore it further.

This story is written by technicians, not artists.

These are people who have studied writing and all the great works. They've dissected and diagramed all the famous stories of history. They have sat in the highest halls of learning being told what are the essential elements of an epic story, what all the ingredients are and what constitutes the broth. They can critique Tolkien and Bradbury, dissect Homer, present the essential elements of Vonnegut, Hemmingway, and Thompson. But they understand nor have experienced any of it.

And so the story is written as a checklist. Hero's Journey, check. Philosophy and meaning of life, check. Opposing beliefs and viewpoints, check. But its all flat and empty cause they are just moving the characters through the checklist as passive participants, not actual drivers of the story that have deep reactions or emotions that resonant with the readers and make us empathize and feel. They do not understand the underpinnings of what they are writing.

These writers are people who have studied writing, but have no life experience and as such have nothing really of their own to relate.
I think it's not that these writers have studied these things, it's that the last writer did that (Amarot is from Thomas Moore's Utopia from 1515, what the FUCK) and they are trying to find a formula in what she did. Which is why so much old ground is retread in Dawntrail.

It's like how the new Marvel writers are copying the work of the successful Marvel writers who actually studied movies, without understanding it, so the MCU is shit now.

I'm totally in awe of what the last expansion achieved so this is quite the fall. Ishikawa solved two big problems in philosophy by putting them into opposition to each other, The Problem of Evil and The Fermi Paradox. Then that's brought to life and given emotion through the character of Venat,

I want to say they were never going to reach those heights again, but this is Final Fantasy, it wouldn't be a popular series if we couldn't expect this every single time.
 

Chris

Potato del Grande
19,436
-10,732
The VA literally only has 1 "pitch" for the voice so anytime it's sad/excited it's always that same "pitch" which is just annoying as fuck, at least the JP VA tried and did much better work with it.
The theory is that the JP actors work more closely with the devs and the rest are outsourced, not always being given the context to do a good job. This time EN voice acting is outsourced to a Californian company to get the accents and not an English one.

I get the feeling that some EN actors are getting invovled with the community so know the story (eg Alphinaud/Alisae), but new ones are going to be clueless.
 

Chysamere

FF14 Free Company Master
<WoW Guild Officer>
3,489
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1720392793344.png
 
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Koushirou

Log Wizard
<Gold Donor>
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Welp, finished up. I kinda hated it (if it wasn’t obvious). Had lots of potential, I just think they fucked it all up. Whole thing was soft as shit, too much cringe, that world music finale sucked. Dungeons and trials were fucking fantastic. Music in the second half, also great. Like someone else said, this was basically a checklist; everything was convenient, everything happened when it should, everybody shows up when needed.

Who did Zoraal Ja even fuck? Why did this even need to be a plot point? If daddy issues was gonna be the reason for his big heel turn, it’d be nice if they’d have shown that prior to like…level 99 story…

I think
Erenville’s mom
takes it for my most hated character in the entire game. What a selfish fucking psycho cunt.
 
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Cybsled

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
17,095
13,622
I avoided this thread until I finished the MSQ - I rate the first half about a 2.5, the 2nd half a 7...I probably would have rated 2nd half a bit higher but the final zone sort of frustrated me from a story perspective. Story aside, the combat/dungeon mechanics were really damned good. Even dungeon bosses would throw party wipe shit at you if you aren't paying attention. The final boss on extreme is going to be a shitshow lol

Thoughts on MSQ/etc

1st half of the story is basically The Amazing Race with Wuk Lamat as the main character. I had to force myself to get through them - it was as bad as the ARR post-patch content excluding the 'red wedding' stuff. Wuk Lamat is basically Lyse as a furry. Unlike Lyse, they did show a bit more growth in character for Wuk. Lyse was like "like we need to totally fight the empire, why aren't you fighting?" and then she gets to lead the entire resistance because she's got moxy. Wuk is sort of the same, although she becomes more confident I guess. Problem is Wuk Lamat says the same damned thing like 100 times but using slightly different words. The twins and Krile didn't even need to be there because they got to do nothing. Even Erenvelle barely factors in. And your character feels like a fucking WoW character with you just watching main characters do stuff while you twiddle your thumbs - which would be fine if this was WoW, but the core premise in FF14 is -YOU- are the main character. Our ass got reduced to special guest star role.

After you finish the Texas zone, then the MSQ gets interesting. The whole Altered Carbon thing they had going was pretty cool and the twist with Sephene was handled well - the player knows something is up, although we hope things are as they appear on the surface. Sarul Ja or whatever had a pretty dumb premise - like Thanos dumb. "There will be peace if I fucking murder half the planet!". And somehow he found another iksar in Solution Nine to bang and produce a kid.

However, the Living Memory thing made me frustrated because it goes against how the game has handled this situation in the past and this expac revealed a solution for the Endless, which they promptly ignored. Sir Otis (robot) was memory AND soul in a robot vessel - as far as we can tell, he did not depend on Living Memory to exist or function. For sure I thought they might use that as a solution - they've got thousands of robot soldiers, they could literally dump all the memories and souls from Living Memory into them and the problem is solved. Sure, they could have said something like "the technology to do that was lost" or whatever, but they never even approached the subject for whatever reason. Maybe they will revisit that in future patches, but it seems extremely odd that you introduce Chekov's Robot and then it never becomes a plot point ever again.

Which brings us to the memories. This game, over multiple expansions, has mused about what makes someone alive or makes someone a specific person:

1) Yotsu lost her memories and we get into the debate of "if an evil person commits evil acts, then all their memories are expunged, do you still punish them? Who is the evil person: The physical body, or the mind behind those acts?

2) Crystal Exarch effectively died, but his memories were put into present day Gra'ha and we functionally treat him as the same person as the Exarch even though they aren't his memories, they are the memories of an alternate timeline version of himself. Granted both are Gra'ha, but still.

3) Ultima Thule if you do the Omicron quests reveals that even though the beings there have no aether and are just memories supported by dynamis, they are functionally alive

The same admittedly has also handled how souls are handled a bit differently - they have confirmed in game that some souls have certain core memories or personality traits embedded within them. Like Azem is an adventurer that likes to make friends everywhere. But they have also mentioned most souls are just blank slates - memories get erased over time and then the soul/life force basically is part of the Aetherial Sea and may or may not get reborn as another person.

So for Living Memory, unlike Emet's recreation of Amaurot, the people there are the actual memories of the people represented. While the soul giving them form isn't their original, all their memories and personality are intact. Prior xpacs would have treated them as living things, or at the very least, given more consideration. And while the story does somewhat of a superficial "is this the correct course of action?", the MSQ effectively turns us into Meteion/Endsinger and we exterminate an entire world/realm, because not just the memories are going to be gone, but all the actual living plants and animals that depended on the system to support them. It's like reverse Endwalker lol.

That whole part of the story might have felt a bit better if they handled it a bit differently - as is, none of the people really got a choice in deletion except Calchuia and Krile's birth parents. Maybe if they pulled a Good Place and the people in paradise were longing for oblivion after existing for millenia, but no one really seemed to put any actual weight in the decision except Erenville when he gets mad in the garden (which was the single moment of the entire xpac that got me a bit emotional - his initial reactions were a lot more realistic for someone who is effectively going to lose their parent/loved one). Because "they're not real".

I suppose they may revisit it - they had that single image of the Queen's Crown, which they previously confirmed was a special regulator. And we have the Mcguffin key that lets you travel to other shards now.

Final thoughts:

1) Less is more: Wuk Lamat being a main character is fine, the problem is she becomes THE main character at the expense of everyone else. The other characters barely had time to breathe or grow. Outside of Krile and Erenville in the 2nd half, all the other Scions were underutilized and even Koana was underutilized. Gra'ha gets a couple moments, but that's about it.

2) The story felt like a lot of rehash of prior stories in parts. Living Memory = Amarout, Sphene = Ascians wanting a rejoining to restore their people, Wuk Lamat = Lyse, Sarul Ja = Zenos. Not that I mind Ascian stuff, but if you're going to use Ascian plotlines at least involve Ascians.

Maybe it will be like Stormblood and the post-MSQ patches salvage the story. Actual Stormblood MSQ was kind of meh I thought, but the post patch stuff was pretty darn good.
 
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Palum

what Suineg set it to
26,661
41,661
I avoided this thread until I finished the MSQ - I rate the first half about a 2.5, the 2nd half a 7...I probably would have rated 2nd half a bit higher but the final zone sort of frustrated me from a story perspective. Story aside, the combat/dungeon mechanics were really damned good. Even dungeon bosses would throw party wipe shit at you if you aren't paying attention. The final boss on extreme is going to be a shitshow lol

Thoughts on MSQ/etc

1st half of the story is basically The Amazing Race with Wuk Lamat as the main character. I had to force myself to get through them - it was as bad as the ARR post-patch content excluding the 'red wedding' stuff. Wuk Lamat is basically Lyse as a furry. Unlike Lyse, they did show a bit more growth in character for Wuk. Lyse was like "like we need to totally fight the empire, why aren't you fighting?" and then she gets to lead the entire resistance because she's got moxy. Wuk is sort of the same, although she becomes more confident I guess. Problem is Wuk Lamat says the same damned thing like 100 times but using slightly different words. The twins and Krile didn't even need to be there because they got to do nothing. Even Erenvelle barely factors in. And your character feels like a fucking WoW character with you just watching main characters do stuff while you twiddle your thumbs - which would be fine if this was WoW, but the core premise in FF14 is -YOU- are the main character. Our ass got reduced to special guest star role.

After you finish the Texas zone, then the MSQ gets interesting. The whole Altered Carbon thing they had going was pretty cool and the twist with Sephene was handled well - the player knows something is up, although we hope things are as they appear on the surface. Sarul Ja or whatever had a pretty dumb premise - like Thanos dumb. "There will be peace if I fucking murder half the planet!". And somehow he found another iksar in Solution Nine to bang and produce a kid.

However, the Living Memory thing made me frustrated because it goes against how the game has handled this situation in the past and this expac revealed a solution for the Endless, which they promptly ignored. Sir Otis (robot) was memory AND soul in a robot vessel - as far as we can tell, he did not depend on Living Memory to exist or function. For sure I thought they might use that as a solution - they've got thousands of robot soldiers, they could literally dump all the memories and souls from Living Memory into them and the problem is solved. Sure, they could have said something like "the technology to do that was lost" or whatever, but they never even approached the subject for whatever reason. Maybe they will revisit that in future patches, but it seems extremely odd that you introduce Chekov's Robot and then it never becomes a plot point ever again.

Which brings us to the memories. This game, over multiple expansions, has mused about what makes someone alive or makes someone a specific person:

1) Yotsu lost her memories and we get into the debate of "if an evil person commits evil acts, then all their memories are expunged, do you still punish them? Who is the evil person: The physical body, or the mind behind those acts?

2) Crystal Exarch effectively died, but his memories were put into present day Gra'ha and we functionally treat him as the same person as the Exarch even though they aren't his memories, they are the memories of an alternate timeline version of himself. Granted both are Gra'ha, but still.

3) Ultima Thule if you do the Omicron quests reveals that even though the beings there have no aether and are just memories supported by dynamis, they are functionally alive

The same admittedly has also handled how souls are handled a bit differently - they have confirmed in game that some souls have certain core memories or personality traits embedded within them. Like Azem is an adventurer that likes to make friends everywhere. But they have also mentioned most souls are just blank slates - memories get erased over time and then the soul/life force basically is part of the Aetherial Sea and may or may not get reborn as another person.

So for Living Memory, unlike Emet's recreation of Amaurot, the people there are the actual memories of the people represented. While the soul giving them form isn't their original, all their memories and personality are intact. Prior xpacs would have treated them as living things, or at the very least, given more consideration. And while the story does somewhat of a superficial "is this the correct course of action?", the MSQ effectively turns us into Meteion/Endsinger and we exterminate an entire world/realm, because not just the memories are going to be gone, but all the actual living plants and animals that depended on the system to support them. It's like reverse Endwalker lol.

That whole part of the story might have felt a bit better if they handled it a bit differently - as is, none of the people really got a choice in deletion except Calchuia and Krile's birth parents. Maybe if they pulled a Good Place and the people in paradise were longing for oblivion after existing for millenia, but no one really seemed to put any actual weight in the decision except Erenville when he gets mad in the garden (which was the single moment of the entire xpac that got me a bit emotional - his initial reactions were a lot more realistic for someone who is effectively going to lose their parent/loved one). Because "they're not real".

I suppose they may revisit it - they had that single image of the Queen's Crown, which they previously confirmed was a special regulator. And we have the Mcguffin key that lets you travel to other shards now.

Final thoughts:

1) Less is more: Wuk Lamat being a main character is fine, the problem is she becomes THE main character at the expense of everyone else. The other characters barely had time to breathe or grow. Outside of Krile and Erenville in the 2nd half, all the other Scions were underutilized and even Koana was underutilized. Gra'ha gets a couple moments, but that's about it.

2) The story felt like a lot of rehash of prior stories in parts. Living Memory = Amarout, Sphene = Ascians wanting a rejoining to restore their people, Wuk Lamat = Lyse, Sarul Ja = Zenos. Not that I mind Ascian stuff, but if you're going to use Ascian plotlines at least involve Ascians.

Maybe it will be like Stormblood and the post-MSQ patches salvage the story. Actual Stormblood MSQ was kind of meh I thought, but the post patch stuff was pretty darn good.
I agree with these criticisms. I still think the complete lack of interactivity in the MSQ set off a chain reaction. It's cutscene after cutscene of Wuk talking and being stupid and naive then miraculously everything works out and you move on with no gameplay. It made it even more frustrating.
 
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Palum

what Suineg set it to
26,661
41,661
Does anyone play dragoon anymore? Aesthetically it's always been my favorite class. It seems like they get rid of a lot of annoying gauge nonsense, but still seems like a lot of disconnected abilities.