GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

khalid_sl said:

I just completely disagree with your take on this. Dany wasn't "bullied" into a marriage. She was being harassed by a guerrilla force and had to find a way to deal with them while the armies were outside her gates. She married someone after that person showed that they could stop the opposition to her rule. It isn't as if she couldn't depose her husband at any time if she wanted. No matter what Hizdar thought.

Also, you seem to see Dany's time in Meereen as an episode of constant failure up until she flew away on her dragon. This is the opposite of what happened. She bided her time, kept her people alive and her armies strong. If she had instead marched out immediately it is possible that they would have lost. Instead, its clear that a few weeks after flying away on her dragon the armies outside of her walls have rotted away. Meanwhile, her armies inside are even stronger than they are before, since her freedmen have been constantly training. Her dickering around essentially won her the war.

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You think she was biding her time, and setting them up? What gave you that idea? Almost everything I read indicates the other slave families constantly pushed her into position where upon her assassination, the transition of power would have been smooth. The only reason their strategy didn't go according to plan was because Drogon had his little feast, and because Belwas ate her snacks--that's literally the only thing that stopped her from dying and them winning.

Lets look over it. Rather than purge the nobles, which she *knows* are part of the conspiracy because of Hizdar's ability to stop it, she takes hostages from them (Weak)...They give her hostages she knows she can't kill--and they even test her by killing one of her higher ranking Unsullied, which the Green Grace comes the next day to ask if she retaliated, she says no, this emboldens them even more...A peasant brings her the bones of a child and says her dragon ate him, so she locks her dragons up, publicly displaying she has no control (probably a manipulation of the royal families.) An opposing army of previously competing cities marches on her (Probably invited. The way Hizdar acts with them after Dany is gone, and a few other clues I forget off hand shows the siege was probably orchestrated from within)--eventually all this happens and her position grows weaker and more tenuous until she is forced to marry Hizdar (So you're right there, she was forced--but where you see need, I see manipulation and weakness leading her to that need.)

So now she is married to Hizdar, her dragons are locked up, her city is surrounded, she has useless hostages (Children) and her enemy has very useful hostages (Daario--again, inside info seems to flow out).....Essentially every bit of power she has, is locked away or controlled. All that needs to happen is for her to die, and the city will be ripe to be taken.

But she doesn't die--and without her death, Hizdar can't make his move, because her power doesn't become his (Because Barristan and her Unsullied captain feel she is alive). So, her weakness against the noble families allowed her to nearly be check mated (By forcing her into marriage)---but she got supremely lucky during the coup de grace, and flew away. Then a combination of plague and time, solved a few of her problems--but that certainly wasn't planned. The only "plan" here was from the Harpy (Which my guess is the Green Grace which manipulates the shit out of her)--and it only failed due to dumb luck.

Fire and Blood Dany, from books 1-3, would have purged the city of all noble families except for children--done.

And Dany is probably my favorite or second favorite character--which is why I'm especially critical of her character shrinkage. She went from a shrewd, powerful, awesome character to an indecisive wimp, who got lucky to pull her ass from the fire. I mean I mean Mirri Maz Duur is the same character as the Green Grace, conquered religous figure befriending Dany and coercing her into making mistake after mistake. So yeah, I see everything in Mereen as one big string of failures and blunders--with some pretty big character regressions. Hopefully that's done, and she can get back to kicking ass and taking names.

Azeth_sl said:

1.) Joffrey was going to catch an arrow in the belly

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I was hoping.

Lithose_sl said:

Fire and Blood would have seen the crucified slaves and purged the city of all noble families except for children--done.

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This isn't Dany's character at all though. She doesn't purge the nobles because she doesn't know which nobles are doing it. I don't see that as weakness, I see that as doing the right thing. She even mentions that when she makes her speech about staying in Meereen. She doesn't want to be just a Khal, going around raping and pillaging. She isn't Tywin or Drogo, that isn't a weakness, that is a strength. Many of the people following her are doing so specifically because she isn't that. Now taking hostages and not killing them could be seen as a weakness, but it is definitely in character for her. She has NEVER supported hurting children, it has always been anathema to her. If anything, the character shrinkage comes when she has second thoughts about trying to be a good ruler after she rides away on Drogon and thinks she should have just purged the entire city.

As for the plot of possibly poisoning her and setting up a smooth transition of power... Even if she had died on the sands, no way Hizdahr maintains power. Barristan pretty much says this explicitly after she is gone, that it is clear she is the only one holding the city together and if proof comes back that she is dead Meereen is going to explode in fire and blood.

khalid_sl said:

This isn't Dany's character at all though. She doesn't purge the nobles because she doesn't know which nobles are doing it. I don't see that as weakness, I see that as doing the right thing. She even mentions that when she makes her speech about staying in Meereen. She doesn't want to be just a Khal, going around raping and pillaging. She isn't Tywin or Drogo, that isn't a weakness, that is a strength. Many of the people following her are doing so specifically because she isn't that. Now taking slaves and not killing them could be seen as a weakness, but it is definitely in character for her. She has NEVER supported hurting children, it has always been anathema to her. If anything, the character shrinkage comes when she has second thoughts about trying to be a good ruler after she rides away on Drogon and thinks she should have just purged the entire city.

As for the plot of possibly poisoning her and setting up a smooth transition of power... Even if she had died on the sands, no way Hizdahr maintains power. Barristan pretty much says this explicitly after she is gone, that it is clear she is the only one holding the city together and if proof comes back that she is dead Meereen is going to explode in fire and blood.

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Well I said except for the Children. And Dany purged all of Astapor of slave owners. I'm not sure why you think that killing all of the noble families is against her character. She's killedthousands and thousandsof people for just owning slaves (Men and women)...but she only chose to execute the heads of these families...why? Her indecisiveness and second guessing, right there, is what lead to more suffering later. That's what she is lamenting on Drogon, weakness breeds weakness and suffering (Not killing the noble families lead to her having to take child hostages--which is a worse choice than killing the adults.). She learned that lesson, about difficult choices, in the *first* book with the witch (Don't put your trust in a conquered enemy?)--but now she is making all those same mistakes with the Green Grace..This entire arc, for her character (Being manipulated to eat into her own power) has been done before, which is why I said she is shrinking.

Also... If she had died on the sands, Barristan wouldn't have even stuck around. That's what Hizdar needs--if he is working with the other slave owners, he *wants* the unsullied and Barristan gone, so he can "make peace" with his "enemies" and get back to running his now expanded slave empire. That's why Barristan made that comment that he's never seen a king act so meek (When he was deciding whether to kill the Dragons)--Because he's playing for the other side. Barristan and the unsullied just staying is the problem.

Lithose_sl said:

Well I said except for the Children. And Dany purged all of Astapor of slave owners.

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Sure and she clearly regrets it and makes that clear as being one of the reasons she is staying in Meereen instead of just purging it and going. Also, whether or not Barristan and the Unsullied left Meereen (where to exactly?), the city would have exploded in a bloodletting of monumental proportions if she dies. The fear and love for her is the only glue holding it together.

Anyway, I respect your opinions but I just have a different take on it. I think we might both agree though that there are plenty of awesome Dany scenes ahead, yes?

Damnit. I really should just wait for the season to end and watch all them back to back. Liked this episode a lot.

khalid_sl said:

Sure and she clearly regrets it and makes that clear as being one of the reasons she is staying in Meereen instead of just purging it and going. Also, whether or not Barristan and the Unsullied left Meereen (where to exactly?), the city would have exploded in a bloodletting of monumental proportions if she dies. The fear and love for her is the only glue holding it together.

Anyway, I respect your opinions but I just have a different take on it. I think we might both agree though that there are plenty of awesome Dany scenes ahead, yes?

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Who knows where they would go. I know the Unsullied and Barristan hate Hizdar--they are only staying, like you said, on love for Dany. I just believe that love is based on her being alive. (Barristan tried to convince himself she is over and over).

And yeah, who knows, I might be seeing consipiracies where there aren't any--I don't have any PoV's from those other characters. I just see Meeren as the "you must go back to go forward" part of the prophecy (Mirri Maz Duur=Green grace ect)--except it took a figurative turn in Martin's writing, lol (Because of him having to synch her developments with others). But yeah, the final scene with Dany is very promising...I think she's going to be the best part of the next book, or at least I hope so. I really can't wait to see her riding around on Drogon in Westeros.

I think Dany and Jon's arc are essentially parallels. "Kill the boy so the man can be born"

Dany and Jon both have been shown to be great leaders, but poor rulers essentially. I dont think her character has regressed or stagnated, so much as she doesnt want to tarnish the image of the "Break of Chains" or "Mother", which is frustrating for the reader due to her previous actions. Since shes a good person at heart (really, she is) she would rather try to get the nobles on her side rather than kill the lot of them. The people in the east are pretty much all scum-fucks, they see her nature and jump to take advantage of her. She's aware, but doesn't know what to do because shes trying to be something she's really not. The is Aegon the Conqueror reborn with tits, not Tyrion with dragons. Drogon pretty much has to test her by flame because he senses her losing her identity (she loses herself the moment she decides to stay in Meereen instead of packing up for Westeros, which in the long run is looking good for her), and then Quaithe comes at the last chapter and bluntly tells her "The dragons know, do you?".

I dont think that her freeing the slaves, taming Drogos Dothraki Dick, killing some wizards, and sacking a city give her any credence towards being a good ruler. A good leader? Certainly. Someone who insipires others to follow? Yup. Becoming a strong person through her experiences? Yeah. Ruling a city and its population? Not yet. Especially in a place where most of the people in power don't want her around because shes ruining their profits due to the whole slave abolition thing. She's not equipped to deal with that AND guerilla warfare. Nobody in her entourage has political genius.

She got herself into a situation she can't handle, and one where she doesnt know what the fuck to do. That's Tyrion's game, not hers.

Dany has grown a lot through the books but there is much to be done. I agree the Daario stuff and some others were frustrating, but her arc makes sense to me and follows nicely. Is it annoying? Sometimes. Id like to see her burninate every mofo who gets in her way, but thats not who she is at her core. We are only, what, 4 years into the story? It would seem pretty unreasonable for this 13 year old scared child who is sold to an army to turn into Aegon the Conqueror with masterful political abilities in such a short time. Especially without hitting any speedbumps along the way. The Meereen experience with her getting "lost" is something that needed to happen to her to push her to the next level.

Also. I love this series so much because of the discussions is breeds, like this. Its one of the few that can breed legitimate discussions about character development and intentions. So good.

Lemmiwinks_sl said:

I dont think that her freeing the slaves, taming Drogos Dothraki Dick, killing some wizards, and sacking a city give her any credence towards being a good ruler. A good leader? Certainly. Someone who insipires others to follow? Yup. Becoming a strong person through her experiences? Yeah. Ruling a city and its population? Not yet. Especially in a place where most of the people in power don't want her around because shes ruining their profits due to the whole slave abolition thing. She's not equipped to deal with that in guerilla warfare. Nobody in her entourage has political genius.

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To be clear: I don't think those things make her a politically adept ruler. I think doing those things should have made her strong enough to see through some of the problems in Meeren. You even say as much, that the nobles are taking advantage of her and she knows it but doesn't know what to do--but she does know what to do, she's been in this situation before. I mean, really Mirri maz duur and the Green Grace, if the Green Grace is "The Harpy", are so similar it's it's almost uncanny. She learned in the first book you can not be too soft when dealing with potential enemies--and she paid a dear, dear price for that lesson.

In my opinion, her political naivety is not enough of a reason to embrace that "softness" of her youth and allow herself to be surrounded and manipulated by her freshly conquered citizens (Green Grace constantly advises her, both of Dany's favorite hostages are the Green Grace's cousins.) But that's what happens. We have the woman whose son and husband died, and she became like iron and watched her enemy burn alive--now all of the sudden once more takes people into confidence and follows their advice even though it can be seen they are, at least partially, in bed with the other side (Green Grace pushes Dany to marry Hizdar, Hizdar can stop the killing). I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.

Can I believe Dany is a poor ruler? Sure, she is a young girl. I just don't think this particular political knot was a good display of her hiccups. Rather than forcing her to grow, it seemed like she shrank and then remembered "Hey, wait a second, I'm awesome!"--And I said this (In my spoiler post) and you did as well--Even the Dragons saw she had "lost her way"--she kind of just lost that fire that made her a strong leader. And I think using that "loss" to show her ruling/political weakness, was poor character development. He probably didn't need to take something she already had learned away, just to show she was politically naive. (It reminded me of a comic book cliche, where to challenge a character that's too strong, they take his powers away.)

But then again, maybe that was all the plan. Martin constantly spins her "path" prophecy--you must go back to go forward. Maybe Mereen was about her receding a bit and realizing she must be tempered by fireallthe time--there is no room for any weakness if she wants to rule. There were a lot of lessons in Mereen that showed that (As said, not killing the nobles lead to an even worse choice of killing children ect--weakness breeds suffering.)

Lithose_sl said:

But then again, maybe that was all the plan. Martin constantly spins her "path" prophecy--you must go back to go forward. Maybe Mereen was about her receding a bit and realizing she must be tempered by fire all the time--there is no room for any weakness if she wants to rule.

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I think this is the main idea.

I can agree with the notion that the way Martin did it may not be the best way to show her progression, but then again as the readers, we dont know whats to come so who knows. Im in no position to say that Martins doing it wrong or whatever and I'm certainly no author. I would have liked her arc in book 5 to be a bit more concise with some better editing though.

I dont think the who Mirri Maz thing completely carries over into ruling over a city though. I agree it should teach her to be more cautious, but thats quite a bit different from ruling a city, dont you think? Shes been taken advantage of before, but by 1 person and some warlocks and a couple other pissants, not a city of dudes with their own armies and political power ect.

I say all this though with some bias as Ill admit Im a fanboy, and ADWD, after reading through it 3 times, may be my 2nd favorite edition in the series so far.

Lemmiwinks_sl said:

Also. I love this series so much because of the discussions is breeds, like this. Its one of the few that can breed legitimate discussions about character development and intentions. So good.

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I very much agree here.

Still don't care about Dany though.

When her chapters are mainly internal contemplation and decision making it's difficult to like her when she's so far behind the game.

Homsar_sl said:

How can you say poor Theon but then say that about jaime, I mean Theon betrayed everyone close to him and murdered children

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They are both beyond redemption in my eyes, although I really enjoy Jamie's character Arc. I don't personally like him, since you know he tried to kill a ten year old (that's all there is to it, he tried to murder a kid, there's no coming back from that). Nevertheless, seeing his fall I certainly pity him, and the fact that his hand being chopped off almost entirely the result of protecting the Knight (Sirwhat'shername)...I wonder if he hadn't pushed for that whole sleeping on the ground, if maybe they'd of let the whole thing blow over...he just had to push for that extra convenience there.

Theon's a scumbag, murders kids, and doesn't even have the balls to follow through and do it himself, like his "father" taught him.


Also fuck Harrowmont or whatever that fucker Black Watch was named, he deserved to get fucked. Protecting that scumbag because it favored the watch, what the fuck is that bull shit? It's the god damned Night's Watch not the Gray watch, fuckin' bargin' with that scumbag.

I dont think the who Mirri Maz thing completely carries over into ruling over a city though. I agree it should teach her to be more cautious, but thats quite a bit different from ruling a city, dont you think? Shes been taken advantage of before, but by 1 person and some warlocks and a couple other pissants, not a city of dudes with their own armies and political power ect.

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Realistically, when she returns to retake the Iron Throne, she will need to make political alliances/manage various houses. Some may be straight forward with natural allies, others may be with opportunistic sects, and others may be begrudgingly with segments that can bring certain things to the table that she is unable to do on her own. Unless she is willing to do a total purge, she needed to learn how to navigate this type of system to make things work.

The eastern kingdoms are totally her starter kit for learning to rule. It'll let her show up in Westeros and be all godly raining down fire and ruling in a way the people will fear her at first and be thankful she came once they realize she's awesome.

You could tell that the Lord Commander didn't like it and he was so uneasy whenever they stayed at that dudes cabin. I assume its rare for the knights watch to have allies north of the wall so he will take what he can get. I think back to when Jon Snow saw the sacrifice and realized the Lord Commander knew. You could tell how disgusted he was, but he's young and doesnt know what it's like north of the wall. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I understand why he lets it slide.

Hamscratch_sl said:

You could tell that the Lord Commander didn't like it and he was so uneasy whenever they stayed at that dudes cabin. I assume its rare for the knights watch to have allies north of the wall so he will take what he can get. I think back to when Jon Snow saw the sacrifice and realized the Lord Commander knew. You could tell how disgusted he was, but he's young and doesnt know what it's like north of the wall. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I understand why he lets it slide.

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Yeah and you get older an you begin to understand, the illogical idiocy in never making any compromises, so occasionally you have to make hard decisions. Hard decisons like abiding to your principles and good sense or giving way to bettering the position of the Night's watch, because principles will only get you so far, right?

Which is all the more reason that none of that made any fucking sense to me? There's a vast difference between compromise and appeasement; I don't understand what the the thought process in appeasing a guy who's helping the VERY enemy that the Watch was formed after? Or am I confused? I was under the impression the Watch was originally formed under the condition of protecting people from the White Walkers, not wildlings...and while time had made them absent and the Wildlings replaced the threat of the White Walkers, how could there be any sense that being an accessory to aiding the White Walkers is better in the long run? for the sake of getting intel on the Wildlings? Who apparently are now going to storm the Wall and destroy the Night's watch, BUT ONLY because the threat of the White Walkers themselves...why appease the preternatural threat? It would have made more sense doing what the King beyond the walls did, by uniting the Wildlings against a common enemy, at least Wildlings aren't going to kill you--and then enslave your corpse???...it's not like Commander whatever his name was didn't see that there was something sinister behind the pact that was made, I'm pretty sure John brought up that it was a white walker and the commander appeared to already know...that's just stupid.

Szlia_sl said:

This make me think that one of the core element of the scenario, the legitimacy of Joffrey, kinda went awol. Who are all the people who know the blacksmith's apprentice is an heir to the throne? The other end of that issue also remains absent from the plot: Joffrey believes he is a Baratheon yet he hardly ever mention it and has no 'house pride' so to speak. For all intents and purposes, he is a Lannister. There is already these frictions due to the fact he is an egomaniac and a psychopath ('good luck making him do something else than what he wants' said Cersei to her father - possibly foreshadowing a good Joffrey vs Tywin scene), but it would had some depth to Joffrey's character if there was also this 'Remember I am a Baratheon' element.

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The blacksmith apprentice is a bastard. Bastards aren't heir to anything unless legitimized.

Joffrey is surrounded by Lannisters, all the Baratheons are dead or trying to kill him with fire magic. I don't think it is really all that surprising that he tends to favor his Lannister roots.

I was watching the new episode online, and when the shit went down at Craster's Keep the interactive thing pops up with "There is a sacred trust between guests and hosts not to harm the other" and then I was all