GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

Lithose · Mar 14, 2013

Zhaun_sl said:
Not sure I'll find the answer here, but was Robert Baratheon always as much of a drunk lech or was it mostly due to the loss of Eddard's sister?

I'm rewatching Season 1 with the "added features" and it seems implied that he was but it also seems implied he was a "better man" before she died as well.

It's intimated pretty heavily that Ned's sister actually went with Rhaegar because she didn't want to be with Robert, which was because he was such a flawed man when off the battlefield. Unlike Cersei, Ned's sister wouldn't have stood for him fucking around just to alleviate his boredom.

In my opinion, Robert loved to fight, and loved to run around and cause trouble--he's like one of those guys that was a big shot in High School and College but never transitioned to adult life well (IE the guy who always starts every conversation with "Remember senior year when I did X or Y???"). When he thinks back on why he's so miserablenow, he's way to self absorbed to blame himself or his utter lack of maturity/self control that should have come with age, and so he uses Lyanna as a catch all for his misery and it works for him, because no one calls him on it. Just the vibe I get from reading the character, no idea if that's really the case.

Jait · Mar 14, 2013

It's outright said that Jon ran the kingdom, Robert did whatever he wanted and the only thing he knew how to do was fight, drink, and fuck. And there was no more fighting. So he went to shit.

GoT tricked most of us into thinking Ned, Jon, and Robert were the good guys. One bad King doesn't give you the right to overthrow a civilization, especially if you have no idea how to fucking run it afterwards. They didn't care about the people, it was all ego. Robert was just a jealous douchebag who killed the greatest hope their country had in years. Nothing new there in Human history, but in your typical Fantasy series those characters are usually the Knights in Shining Armor.

bixxby · Mar 14, 2013

Listen, if Rhaegar was all that great he wouldn't have got his shit pushed in by a fatman in an overcoat.

Cybsled · Mar 14, 2013

At the time, Robert was basically a jacked up badass. Then he disovered that sitting all day and eating/drinking carbs has consequences.

McCheese · Mar 14, 2013

GoT tricked most of us into thinking Ned, Jon, and Robert were the good guys. One bad King doesn't give you the right to overthrow a civilization, especially if you have no idea how to fucking run it afterwards. They didn't care about the people, it was all ego. Robert was just a jealous douchebag who killed the greatest hope their country had in years. Nothing new there in Human history, but in your typical Fantasy series those characters are usually the Knights in Shining Armor.

To be fair, of Ned, Jon, and Robert, only Robert was a fuck up. When Game of Thrones begins hasn't there been something like 15 years of peace in the 7 kingdoms? That's all under Robert's (aka Jon's) rule. And I don't think there is any doubt that Ned would have made a pretty great king if he had taken the throne instead of Robert. I still consider Ned and Jon "good guys".

Jait · Mar 14, 2013

I was being fair. I didn't say they were evil. But Ned helped overthrow a regime not for the good of his people but for personal vendetta. The people actually seemed fairly happy under the Targaryans and immediately began to miss them once the Tard Trio took over. After the war was done, Ned said fuck it. Sure he was honorable and noble when he could be, but the rest of the time he stuck his head in the sand and ignored everything going on. He didn't even communicate with his "best friends" Jon and Robert much after the war, or at least not in confidence. He was completely stunned that Jon and Robert had fucked up the Kingdom and even that Robert was fat. Then Robert goes and does the same shit like trying to kill innocents as the Mad King did. Ned also retook the job of the Hand despite his own objections.

And when weak folks like Ned bury their heads, the ambitious evil bastards like the Lannisters are the ones really taking over. Ned was a "good guy", but he was also an indolent moron. When he flip flopped at the end for his kids, it cost him his head.

Lithose · Mar 14, 2013

bixxby_sl said:
Listen, if Rhaegar was all that great he wouldn't have got his shit pushed in by a fatman in an overcoat.

As others have said, Robert was "the mountain" of his day--he could break a man in two with a single blow, even through full armor. Robert might have been a bad ruler, but the guy was a beast in combat, every description of him puts him as pretty peerless in his day, even amongst people like Barristan the Bold (Whom he defeated at the Trident as well.)

Lithose · Mar 14, 2013

Jait_sl said:
I was being fair. I didn't say they were evil. But Ned helped overthrow a regime not for the good of his people but for personal vendetta. The people actually seemed fairly happy under the Targaryans and immediately began to miss them once the Tard Trio took over. .

I didn't really see this. If anything, the Defiance of Duskendale points to the mad king being almost exactly like Robet in terms of ruling ability. He was a figure head who had Tywin essentially rule his Kingdom for him. The few times he actually did things on his own, like at Duskendale, he ended up embarrassing himself and showing a complete lack of any ability, at all. At least Robert could fight and cause enough fear to keep things moving smoothly (If he had someone to actually rule, like Jon.)

I mean, lets face it. Robert ruled for 17 years, that's a LONG time. And only had one conflict in those 17 years. That's a good record--people didn't starve or want under him, and the minor lords didn't openly rebel due to unfair practices, like Duskendale did. The only rebellion he had was because the Greyjoys were vicious sons of whores!

McCheese · Mar 14, 2013

The people actually seemed fairly happy under the Targaryans and immediately began to miss them once the Tard Trio took over.

Serious question because I'm curious: where is this stated in the books? It's been a while since I've read them, but I always thought the average folk didn't care who was on the throne. They lived peacefully under the Targaryans and they lived peacefully under Robert. I know Dorn sided with the Targaryans, but the bulk of the kingdoms seemed to accept Robert no problem. I think the only thing you could really say made Jon/Robert's rule bad is that they went heavily into debt. But that's not nearly as bad as plotting to burn down the entire capital city in a fit of madness.

I guess I disagree with your saying that one bad king doesn't give the right to overthrow the kingdoms. If there's a shitty, crazy king he needs to be stopped.

*edit* Yeah, Lithose said what I wanted to say much better.

chaos · Mar 14, 2013

Lithose_sl said:
I didn't really see this. If anything, the Defiance of Duskendale points to the mad king being almost exactly like Robet in terms of ruling ability. He was a figure head who had Tywin essentially rule his Kingdom for him. The few times he actually did things on his own, like at Duskendale, he ended up embarrassing himself and showing a complete lack of any ability, at all. At least Robert could fight and cause enough fear to keep things moving smoothly (If he had someone to actually rule, like Jon.)

I mean, lets face it. Robert ruled for 17 years, that's a LONG time. And only had one conflict in those 17 years. That's a good record--people didn't starve or want under him, and the minor lords didn't openly rebel due to unfair practices, like Duskendale did. The only rebellion he had was because the Greyjoys were vicious sons of whores!

WHAT IS DEAD MAY NEVER DIE!

Chukzombi · Mar 14, 2013

I wouldnt call robert a bad guy, let alone ned or jon. Robert was impulsive and arrogant and quite stupid at times. He was smart enough at least to understand that.the kingdom of robert wasnt much different than the targaryans rule

chaos · Mar 14, 2013

With 17 years hindsight, sure. At the time he thought he was saving the realm.

Chukzombi · Mar 14, 2013

It wont let me edit on that post from my phone. I wanted to add that robert left the running of the kingdom to the same people who had been running it. Basically he retained the status quo

Jait · Mar 14, 2013

Robert's just a selfish prick. Most of the characters are various shades of grey. GoT is great in that you can root for anybody pretty much except Joffrey and Cersei.

But I don't think there was anything noble about why Robert overthrew the kingdom. Even before his death he laments time and time again how he can't avenge Stark again, despite not being able to remember her face.... He gained nothing in his victories, he just became more and more sullen over the girl that didn't want him.

edit: I don't think there's a single line in this entire series where Robert or Ned talked about helping "their people". Varys is about it.

chaos · Mar 14, 2013

Maester Chuk_sl said:
It wont let me edit on that post from my phone. I wanted to add that robert left the running of the kingdom to the same people who had been running it. Basically he retained the status quo

You sure about that? He replaced the Hand, he put Stannis on the Small Council, I don't remember any references to other members but he wasn't particularly kind to the Targaryen loyalists.

Chrisd_sl · Mar 14, 2013

Jait_sl said:
I was being fair. I didn't say they were evil. But Ned helped overthrow a regime not for the good of his people but for personal vendetta.

Jon Arryn called his banners in response to the mad king demanding Robert's and Ned's heads, as he was sworn to protect them. The two boys followed suit. Self defense is not a personal vendetta.

Chukzombi · Mar 14, 2013

@chaos
Yes im sure, targ loyalists aside he left the infrastructure alone.

Kubla Kas_sl · Mar 14, 2013

I sort of agree with Jait. Their reason for rebellion was kind of thin and personal. I don't think the general populace really asked for a coup.

chaos · Mar 14, 2013

Aerys put the Warden of the North to death is a spectacular manner, reminiscent of Nero or Heliogabulus or something. These are the people who provide for and protect the people of the North, noble and common alike. You don't think the commoners were fucking pissed? Brandon Stark made a pretty dumb move. Everyone else was righteous, Aerys was batshit crazy and going to kill them all.

Ao- · Mar 14, 2013

chaos_sl said:
Aerys put the Warden of the North to death is a spectacular manner, reminiscent of Nero or Heliogabulus or something. These are the people who provide for and protect the people of the North, noble and common alike. You don't think the commoners were fucking pissed? Brandon Stark made a pretty dumb move. Everyone else was righteous, Aerys was batshit crazy and going to kill them all.

This.

Hell, even Jaime looks the hero after finding out about the intended actions against the seat of the realm.

GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

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