Greece - A New Hope

dizzie · Feb 1, 2015

Not sure that it's right, either way its a lose lose situation. Maybe its meddling too much but they need to pay what they owe and understand that they need to pay what they owe.

Public owned = poor management etc

Privatised = corruption, people lose out in the end cause profit.

The utility companies in Greece are shit, travelled there regularly from 99-08 and Athens was regularly hit by power outages (at least once a week or so).. Transport system was utter shit before the Olympics (also try getting an honest taxi in Athens, seriously fuck taxi's there).

ohkcrlho · Feb 1, 2015

Austerity measures is about more taxes, cut salaries and sell everything the State has. Of course if the economy is in a bad situation, things are not going to improve.
Well the new government already halted the rest of the privatizing programs and the chinese are pissed because they have already 60 or 70% of the biggest port in Greece (Piraeus) and with this, they can't have 100% control.

DMK_sl · Feb 1, 2015

Flight_sl said:
Do people think it's right that up to now the EU and IMF have forced Greece to sell it's national industries (power, transport etc) to the ruling elite ?

They wouldn't have had to do that if Greece weren't greedy liars who lied about finances and borrowed more than they could afford to repay.

DrLifetilt_sl · Feb 1, 2015

DMK_sl said:
They wouldn't have had to do that if Greece weren't greedy liars who lied about finances and borrowed more than they could afford to repay.

Regarding naive moralizing, here's a great piece from Krugman that sums up the issue nicely:

Log In - The New York Times

TJT · Feb 2, 2015

fanaskin_sl said:
That's only a real question if you think economic rules can never be changed which is of course not true at all. The real question in my mind is if germany is going to use it's clout to dominate the rest of the eu or not(they are), over half of germany's ww1 and ww2 debts were written off when suddenly the rest of europe wanted a strong germany.

Please elaborate on what you mean when you say, "just change the economic rules."

Running Dog_sl · Feb 2, 2015

Kedwyn_sl said:
The punitive climate is very different when other big boys are waiting in line to see what happens so they can shed their debt load as well. No one gave or gives a shit about Argentina or Greece but they do care about a trend and precedent that could bring the house of cards down.

There's a lot of truth in this. IIRC Greece is only about 2% of the EU economy, so if it could be dealt with in isolation, no-one would much care what happened to it, just like they didn't care about the rule-bending that went on before it joined the Euro. The problem is that any concessions given to Greece will have to be offered to Spain and probably Italy for political reasons, and those will be considerably more painful to the pockets of people with real money.

Bear in mind, however, that while Greece is a relatively small economy, their debts are not insignificant. Germany is on the hook for more than $56 billion, so they have a big interest in getting as much back as possible.

dizzie · Feb 2, 2015

At this point it's pretty clear Greece will need concessions of some kind. Would longer repayment terms even work? Less interest although they are paying hardly anything iirc? Any ideas on a practical solution to kickstart the economy even? What do you think they need to do to not get a financial blitzkrieg laid upon them along with working out the problems they have?

I know nothing about Economics so am interested in what folks think could work..

TJT · Feb 2, 2015

Well, the best solution would be to have the ECB and private lenders listen to the IMF. The IMF is the entity that fueled the austerity plan, and pushed the ECB and financial industry into it. Now, the IMF has done a 180 and says austerity is bad and we should be doing what the USA did. Which is keep everything afloat and get paid back when the economy is stabilized.

However, convincing the ECB and the rest of Europe that this is what they should do is quite difficult. There will need to be concessions, sure. But they have to be VERY VERY careful with it because whatever concessions they end up giving to Greece. They will have to immediately give to Spain, Portugal, Italy and any other troubled member nation. Which is why this problem is harder to solve than it should be.

Just like Running Dog says. Nobody gives a shit about Greece. Its the precedent that Greece will set if they handle this situation poorly.

dizzie · Feb 2, 2015

Ya, i can see the blowout as i live in Europe i'm just interested in what they can do to sort it out really as they seem so fucked..Look at the countries you listed though Spain, Italy and Portugal all corrupt as fuck..How on earth did nations with these problems end up in the EU...

As i said before i spent alot of time in Greece and my friend who was half Greek was trying to start a business there in 04 and he said it would have taken 150k Euro in backhanders to get it off the ground.

Cad · Feb 2, 2015

One currency with X number of sovereign governments just isn't going to work long term.

Chris · Feb 2, 2015

I could see that this was a bad thing as a 10 year old child, as apparently did my entire country. WTF Europe.

ohkcrlho · Feb 2, 2015

I can assure portuguese government is not with Greece right now. Saying it's a fairy tale, what Tsipras wants, that there are commitments and they will not support a reunion to negotiate the debt. Spanish government has kinda the same opinion.
But it's no surprise, both are right wing liberals (similar to your republicans) and follow germany's policies till death, even if both countries are dying.

Running Dog_sl · Feb 3, 2015

ohkcrlho_sl said:
I can assure portuguese government is not with Greece right now. Saying it's a fairy tale, what Tsipras wants, that there are commitments and they will not support a reunion to negotiate the debt. Spanish government has kinda the same opinion.
But it's no surprise, both are right wing liberals (similar to your republicans) and follow germany's policies till death, even if both countries are dying.

In Spain the anti-austerity Podemos party is on the rise. It didn't exist a year ago, it's already won 5 seats in the EU parliament, and there are local and national elections this year. If Greece gets concessions now, then it might pose a significant threat to the mainstream parties.

Tens of thousands fill Madrid square for anti-austerity rally - CNN.com

Yesterday, however, the Greeks already seem to have backtracked on some of their demands, although nothing concrete has been agreed yet.

There?s a sense of calm in the markets this morning after the new Greek government laid out its plan to renegotiate its some of its debt pile. And it?s a more nuanced stance than some expected; Athens is asking for ?menu of debt swaps? to give it time and space to recover. That includes:

1) Growth Bonds, which would be linked to Greece?s nominal economic growth. They would replace some of the debt held by European partners, who would only be paid if the Greek economy was growing.

2) Perpetual Bonds, to replace the debt currently held by the European Central Bank.

Finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, who outlined the plan to City investors yesterday, is dubbing the plan ?smart debt engineering?. It won?t actually involve a headline cut to Greece?s debt, simply lift some of the burden of repaying it.

Bloomberg TV, though, are calling it the Greek Retreat ? as it?s not the debt forgiveness that some voters hoped to see.

Greek debt swap plan cheers markets - business live | Business | The Guardian

Running Dog_sl · Feb 9, 2015

After they seemed to relax their position last week, the Greek government has done an about-turn and is once again heading to full confrontation with the other Eurozone nations

In a passionate address to the Athens parliament last night, Alexis Tsipras insisted that his government would deliver on its pre-election pledges, intensifying the crisis.

Athens will not seek an extension when its existing bailout expires at the end of February, he said. Instead, he will seek a new "bridge agreement" to cover Greece's funding needs until June.

...Declaring his administration "a government of national salvation", Tsipras said he would also pursue claims to win back from Germany wartime loans that Greece had been forced to make to Nazi occupiers. "I can't overlook what is an ethical duty, a duty to history . to lay claim to the wartime debt."

...Investors will have noted the Greek finance minister's alarming comments yesterday. Yanis Varoufakis declared that the eurozone was a 'house of cards' that would collapse without Greece, and went on to claim that Italy's debt situation is "unsustainable". That prompted Italy's finance minister to tweet back that the Italian debt was quite sustainable, thankyouverymuchYanis.

Greek bonds and shares dive as Grexit fears grow - live updates | Business | The Guardian

Drakurii · Apr 10, 2015

Greece: Germany owes us 279 billion euros - Apr. 7, 2015

Germany owes Greece 279 billion euros in compensation for war damage. At least that's what the Greeks say. The Germans say the claim is nonsense.

The issue of German war debt towards Greece has been raised many times before -- most recently in 2010 and 2012, when Greece was negotiating the terms of its 240 billion euros ($260 billion) international bailout package.

But this is the first time Athens has put an official number -- roughly $300 billion -- on World War II reparations.

The German government has -- again -- dismissed the claims, saying the matter has long been closed. "They won't get their debts paid by conjuring up German obligations from World War II," German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble told German media last month.

Furry · Apr 10, 2015

greece should sue them in one of those european human rights courts. Imagine the hilarity if they actually won.

iannis · Apr 10, 2015

That's so ridiculous that it's not even a negotiating tactic. Are they just trying to look stupid?

Obviously it's posturing for internal consumption... but there really can't be many greeks who think that's legitimate.

Or maybe there are, and maybe that's the entire trouble with the hairy breed of assfuckers down there.

iannis · Apr 10, 2015

Give them their 40 acres and a mule, Germany! DO IT.

PatrickStar · Apr 10, 2015

Greece pulling out the WWII reparations card actually made me laugh hard this morning. Holy shit that's when you know you're desperate.

fanaskin · Apr 10, 2015

well it's straight to a point though, the west wrote off germany's debt when suddenly they wanted germany to be strong again, now germany won't write off greeces debt.

Greece - A New Hope

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