Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
You can try. That"s what Curt aims to, anyway.Twobit Whore said:
The point of contention is that you are extremely unlikely to succeed. Sure, lots of people around here want him to succeed, but the point is that he"s not likely to. He"s:
1) Entering one of the market with the highest number of entrants (Fantasy MMO)
2) Entering with zero experience behind him (as a game producer)
3) Entering with zero brand recognition (quite frankly, the Curt Schilling name may mean something to some of you, but for me european, if I had not heard of him due to EQ, I wouldn"t know his name)
4) Entering with zero established IP (ok, let"s see, cue in for the Nth low-originality Tolkien-DnD derivative that no one heard about)
Sure, you can succeed. Let"s put on my fake investor hat for a moment... If I was approached with an eye of investing, I might put some cash in the venture, sure. I sure would NOT invest the hundreds of millions of Lesser Dollars (thank the subprime) needed to go head against WoW, because the odd of succeeding are extremely low.
Despite everything you might say, there are reasons why WoW got to his place. And even if the game quality is a major factor, it"s far from being the only one.
Because of the same usual thing. It"s far easier, and less risky to make a cheap copy of a proven design. You will probably NOT make a million copies, but you will sell some.Draegan said:
Fantasy went thru a minor surge of originality 10 years ago, but today, it"s chockfull of regurgitated stereotypes. There"s nearly zero original fantasy content. There"s a teeeeny bit more originality in SF, because its major icons are so old-fashioned to be out of fashion, and thus, authors have to improvise a bit more. I won"t speak about WW2 novels - all the last ones I"ve read that were interesting featured either time travel or werewolf/vampire hunting, which disqualifies them as primarily WW2 stories.
It would work.Rayne said:
if Curt can make a WoW clone at 8.99$/month instead of WoW"s current price.
Not only that, but beat Bioware"s KOTOR online to the punch. Or pray they"re a major failure.Rayne said:
You"re all retarded. I don"t know where to start, and I"m pretty sure Vhex could sum it up in three words, but I"m too hung over to try.
Not likely. If someone wants a Chevy, they"re going to buy a Chevy. They"re not likely to buy a "Toyota Malibu" because its 30% cheaper than Chevy"s, and quite likely not as high quality due to the substantially lower price.Ukerric said:
Oh come on, you really think the vast majority of the MMO players would switch games over a few dollars per month? The monthly cost really isn"t an issue with these games, it is the product itself. Produce a somewhat polished game (it really doesn"t have to be perfect as some might want), with an interesting storyline, interesting graphics, intuitive game mechanics, that is fun and not just grindy, and is easily expandable. THOSE factors will impact on the appeal.Ukerric said:
Now whether the choice of genre will matter tremendously remains to be seen. Personally I think a new fantasy MMO still could work if it is done well. I wouldn"t mind seeing somethng completely different too, but that isn"t happening here. I also think that the next gen game to blow away the competition will probably be something coming completely out from leftfield.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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If we"re talking about diku-derived fantasy MMOs I agree with Ukerric that not using an established IP (I will randomly name a few: Wheel of Time, Dune (not really fantasy but close enough), Harry Potter) would seem to make entry into the market much more difficult. I certainly don"t think it"s a killer though.
What I would like to see -- and what would get my humble $15.00/month - is a non-diku fantasy MMO. Innovative mechanics ftw. At this point I haven"t read anything that suggests that is the case with this game.
What I would like to see -- and what would get my humble $15.00/month - is a non-diku fantasy MMO. Innovative mechanics ftw. At this point I haven"t read anything that suggests that is the case with this game.
I guess the reason it doesn"t bother me to see yet another fantasy MMO is mainly that I don"t think anyone has really done it "right" yet. Looking at some of them:
EQ was obviously the closest, incredible world and lore, but due to the time it hit and the limits of technology, not everything could be realized. It was still incredible for its time, but so many years later I can"t help but think what would now be possible in the right hands.
EQ2 really dropped the ball in my opinion, it"s a decent game but it didn"t really have any of the magic or mystery that the original possessed. It didn"t help that much of the art was hideous and the game played and ran poorly in general for much of the first year or so. I really wanted to like it, but I just couldn"t. They are now starting to shape things up and seem to have finally realized what people always wanted from EQ2 (a modernized EQ1) with the recently released Kunark, and previous additions of places like Kelethin and Neriak. Still, as many have said before me, the combat system is not the best and the engine itself is pretty poor. It"s just not the fantasy game people are looking for.
DDO was practically an atrocity compared to what it should have and could have been. It"s basically just DnD lite, none of the depth that makes the pnp version good. Hardly worth mentioning, really.
LotRo has been discussed a bit already. It"s a niche game designed to be a niche game, so it doesn"t really factor in, except to say that a new Fantasy game would probably be able to take a huge number of their subscribers if the lore was up to par - people seem to get bored of this one quickly, and might be looking for something else that isn"t WoW.
VG had some great ideas, such as their class designs and some of the dungeon ideas. It simply failed in execution. Not only the bugs, performance issues, and unfinished areas you always hear about, but also important aspects such as Lore. I don"t think anyone even knows what is going on in that world. It"s completely lifeless.
Then there"s WoW, and while no one will argue that it isn"t an incredible game, I don"t feel that it is the be-all-end-all fantasy game. They nailed combat and many other aspects of gameplay, and it is genuinely the most "fun" MMO to just sit down and play. No question. It should be heavy inspiration to any future MMO, but without downright copying it as you are seeing in far too many upcoming games. Also, though just my opinion, the game doesn"t really give a lot of people the feel they are looking for from a fantasy game. Think about it: the lore has definitely taken a back seat in WoW, they don"t mind butchering it or changing it on a whim. Most discussion you hear is more about arena ratings, buffs and nerfs, who downed what boss first, etc. It"s good that they are so focused on gameplay, but I think they are slowly making the game more and more shallow as well by ignoring other things. Don"t get me wrong though, I"ve had a great time in WoW and hope to continue to do so in WotLK. It"s just not my ideal game.
So what am I getting at with all this rambling? Simply that thereisroom for something traditional. Massive amounts of players from all those games I listed above would come running to a game that offered similar quality gameplay as WoW, but with a different fantasy setting and style more to their liking.
Draegan said a few posts back that a lot of people play WoW simply because everything else sucks more. You have no idea how true this is. Similarly, a lot of people play EQ2 and EQ1 simply because they don"t like WoW, want a different type of fantasy, and there is no other choice. You"ve seen surge of people on the boards even playing Vanguard some lately (myself included) simply for lack of interest in other games.
The reason I"m so excited that 38S has chosen to go with Fantasy (and why I hope it"s EQ style fantasy) is because I have a feeling they may be the ones to get it right. Based on some of the people they are hiring, and knowing that Curt was a huge fan of EverQuest, it just seems like it may finally be the right mix to make it happen. Salvatore on Lore is certainly a boon, seeing that he is one of the most loved fantasy authors of our time, even if some find his work shallow. I personally love it. I just wanted to explain my adamant position, why I"m defending fantasy so much. This has potential to be the game I"ve been waiting for pretty much all my life.
EQ was obviously the closest, incredible world and lore, but due to the time it hit and the limits of technology, not everything could be realized. It was still incredible for its time, but so many years later I can"t help but think what would now be possible in the right hands.
EQ2 really dropped the ball in my opinion, it"s a decent game but it didn"t really have any of the magic or mystery that the original possessed. It didn"t help that much of the art was hideous and the game played and ran poorly in general for much of the first year or so. I really wanted to like it, but I just couldn"t. They are now starting to shape things up and seem to have finally realized what people always wanted from EQ2 (a modernized EQ1) with the recently released Kunark, and previous additions of places like Kelethin and Neriak. Still, as many have said before me, the combat system is not the best and the engine itself is pretty poor. It"s just not the fantasy game people are looking for.
DDO was practically an atrocity compared to what it should have and could have been. It"s basically just DnD lite, none of the depth that makes the pnp version good. Hardly worth mentioning, really.
LotRo has been discussed a bit already. It"s a niche game designed to be a niche game, so it doesn"t really factor in, except to say that a new Fantasy game would probably be able to take a huge number of their subscribers if the lore was up to par - people seem to get bored of this one quickly, and might be looking for something else that isn"t WoW.
VG had some great ideas, such as their class designs and some of the dungeon ideas. It simply failed in execution. Not only the bugs, performance issues, and unfinished areas you always hear about, but also important aspects such as Lore. I don"t think anyone even knows what is going on in that world. It"s completely lifeless.
Then there"s WoW, and while no one will argue that it isn"t an incredible game, I don"t feel that it is the be-all-end-all fantasy game. They nailed combat and many other aspects of gameplay, and it is genuinely the most "fun" MMO to just sit down and play. No question. It should be heavy inspiration to any future MMO, but without downright copying it as you are seeing in far too many upcoming games. Also, though just my opinion, the game doesn"t really give a lot of people the feel they are looking for from a fantasy game. Think about it: the lore has definitely taken a back seat in WoW, they don"t mind butchering it or changing it on a whim. Most discussion you hear is more about arena ratings, buffs and nerfs, who downed what boss first, etc. It"s good that they are so focused on gameplay, but I think they are slowly making the game more and more shallow as well by ignoring other things. Don"t get me wrong though, I"ve had a great time in WoW and hope to continue to do so in WotLK. It"s just not my ideal game.
So what am I getting at with all this rambling? Simply that thereisroom for something traditional. Massive amounts of players from all those games I listed above would come running to a game that offered similar quality gameplay as WoW, but with a different fantasy setting and style more to their liking.
Draegan said a few posts back that a lot of people play WoW simply because everything else sucks more. You have no idea how true this is. Similarly, a lot of people play EQ2 and EQ1 simply because they don"t like WoW, want a different type of fantasy, and there is no other choice. You"ve seen surge of people on the boards even playing Vanguard some lately (myself included) simply for lack of interest in other games.
The reason I"m so excited that 38S has chosen to go with Fantasy (and why I hope it"s EQ style fantasy) is because I have a feeling they may be the ones to get it right. Based on some of the people they are hiring, and knowing that Curt was a huge fan of EverQuest, it just seems like it may finally be the right mix to make it happen. Salvatore on Lore is certainly a boon, seeing that he is one of the most loved fantasy authors of our time, even if some find his work shallow. I personally love it. I just wanted to explain my adamant position, why I"m defending fantasy so much. This has potential to be the game I"ve been waiting for pretty much all my life.
It really isn"t true, and I am probably going over a topic we might have discussed 4,563 pages ago in this thread. The bulk of the people who play WOW really are playing it for the game, not because of a lack of alternatives. WOW INCREASED the game space when it came out. This is a point many seem to ignore. That increase came from outside the existing MMO player base. And where did it come from? Mainly the B-net kids. And as it really was and is a well made game those B-netters got their other buddies to play (Cartman for example threatening Butters with death if he did not get the game).Grave said:
In all honesty I think it is going to take a teenage Bill Gates to figure out that next great game, since in the end the growth is with the kids, not us old timers.
Interesting take. Can"t say I"d agree with even a smidgen of it, but interesting and certainly the mindset of many folks that have failed.Ukerric said:
Your points addressed from my perspective
1) Entering a market with more potential customers than any genre out there.
2) Entering the market with the people actually MAKING the game having a huge list of titles shipped, from building teams to shipping products, the leadership group has done it all and the dev team is comprised of people that have worked on pretty much every MMO in existance.
3/4) (They are the much the same thing in our case) Entering the market with two men who have built entire companies and careers on creating their own original IP/Brand and have succeeded for almost 30 some years doing so.
Are the hurdles high? No doubt. But like many others you make the mistake of assuming the way to "win" is to throw "hundreds of milions of dollars NEEDED to go head to head with WoW.
That"s false, wrong and a losing approach. It"s going to be hard, it"s going to take time, but it"s also going to get done. Some how, some way, and we are getting clearer on the how"s and the way"s as we go, it"s going to work.
If it wasn"t I"d have walked away from this already.
The proof will be in the pudding, and me pontificating on how great it"s going to be is useless here, or anywhere. I believe in the team and what they are doing and as it becomes a living tangible thing you can log into, and see, it only solidifies those beliefs. They"re working their magic and getting to see it from nothing more than a vision to something that lives and breathes now will be a very cool thing to share with people one day.
I"m glad we started shooting video from the first day of the companies existance and continue to do so.
Announcing the collectors edition already?Ngruk said:
On a more serious note, why is it that so many people seem to think that Curt is coding, designing and creating this game all by himself? By the list of big names that 38 Studios has hired over the past year or two, I"d say they have an ample amount of experience from top to bottom.
My take on Curt"s take is as follows:
1) A market that is large due to the number of people ALREADY playing the competition"s product and not likely to change just because an unknown studio puts out a new game.
2) Making a game with people that brought us such stellar games as SWG, V:SOH, EQ2. Arguably none of them bad games but not real barn burners
3 & 4) IP that some people know and like and many have never heard of. I prefer other fantasy writers more then the ones you have and many of my friends feel the same way so that is not a selling point at all for us.
I think you will put out a good product, but unfortunately you are close to the actual product and therefore will naturally be biased as to the goods and bads.
No parent ever wants to admit that their child has problems and being with them all the time while they grow you tend to become jaded and blind. As with any large project I have been involved in, we bring outside eyes now and then to look things over and tell us what they see. Sure opens your eyes to get an outside look - see, and by this I don"t mean the typical beta testing that goes on in this genre.
1) A market that is large due to the number of people ALREADY playing the competition"s product and not likely to change just because an unknown studio puts out a new game.
2) Making a game with people that brought us such stellar games as SWG, V:SOH, EQ2. Arguably none of them bad games but not real barn burners
3 & 4) IP that some people know and like and many have never heard of. I prefer other fantasy writers more then the ones you have and many of my friends feel the same way so that is not a selling point at all for us.
I think you will put out a good product, but unfortunately you are close to the actual product and therefore will naturally be biased as to the goods and bads.
No parent ever wants to admit that their child has problems and being with them all the time while they grow you tend to become jaded and blind. As with any large project I have been involved in, we bring outside eyes now and then to look things over and tell us what they see. Sure opens your eyes to get an outside look - see, and by this I don"t mean the typical beta testing that goes on in this genre.
Eh, I don"t think people are really attacking the talent at s38, just whether they can actually get it done. I give Curt a pass at the moment simply because it is too early to say otherwise. I did the same with Brad, until I started seeing what he was actually making at VG, then I gave him hell.Lonin said:
With the lead designer of EQ leaving to join 38 you can"t help but think a strong momentum is being built.
tyen
EQ in a browser wait time: ____
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The thing is, the MMO industry sucks right now. If you don"t enjoy WoW there are absolutely NO games to play of substance. Even if you are tired of WoW or play it just because everything else blows you are shit out of luck.
EQ? EQ2? Vanguard? POTBS? Eve? DAOC? Guild Wars? Lineange? Tabula Rasa? City of Heroes? DDO? LOTRO? SWG? Lineage?.......
Plus, Warhammer and AOC. Neither of them are apealing, AoC will be epic fail and Warhammer is just another WoW clone. Sure warhammer has a few cool things but it"s just a rinse and repeat MMO.
No fucking thanks.
This is a great time for the torch to be passed in the depression state of MMOs. Hopefully someone can deliver, playing RockBand and console games are starting to get old for me.
I"m gonna go out on a limb here and say that every successful MMO prior to WoW was intended for a niche market. I don"t think for a minute that Verant intended EQ to transcend genre"s the way WoW does. They were looking to make a realistic, 3D version of those old MUDs mixed with a hint of high fantasy Tolkienesqe mythology. Those partial to that level of fantasy were drawn into it. The game capitalized on immersion, roleplaying/social, and overall fantasy experience.
WoW, on the other hand, wasn"t trying to do that. They were trying to make a video game that appealed to all gamers and make it as fun as possible. I speculate they were less concerned with the social experimenting with a fantasy skin and more worried about how many people would enjoy the overall fun-level of their game.
The problem is, every new MMO that comes out now days is compared to WoW. WoW kind of made developers realize that the market was an untapped resource tons more money than most were making, if they only made the games easier and more accessible. Where I think alot of companies have gone wrong is that they expect their "niche" game to appeal to the masses. When, in fact, I"m betting no less than 80% of WoW players even know what constitutes an MMO beyond their own WoW-bound experiences. They have been lured in by RL friends, top notch advertising, the rep of the IP, and pop culture.
What it boils down to, for me, is that the MMO industry is maturing from its infancy. Success, in this industry, is relative. Right now, everyone believes that if an MMO doesn"t eclipse WoW"s subs within the first six months of release, its nothing less than epic failure. Can anyone remember when EQ was first released. They used to have population numbers on the server select screen. All of them were roughly 500-800 per server until they took that feature away. EQ had what? 20-25 servers max? So, give or take 20-30k people online at any given time? There"s more players than that on half a battlegroup on WoW. Yet, no one back then complained.
What I hope 38 studios and future MMO developers understand is that its important to base your budget, expectations, and design concept around who your aiming your game after. Not everyone likes high fantasy/RP or Sci-Fi, or Gore, Horror, etc. But everyone DOES like to have fun. Deliver a game that is true to its niche (or lackthereof), delivers what it intends and is, above all, very polished. Then, it will be successful.
WoW, on the other hand, wasn"t trying to do that. They were trying to make a video game that appealed to all gamers and make it as fun as possible. I speculate they were less concerned with the social experimenting with a fantasy skin and more worried about how many people would enjoy the overall fun-level of their game.
The problem is, every new MMO that comes out now days is compared to WoW. WoW kind of made developers realize that the market was an untapped resource tons more money than most were making, if they only made the games easier and more accessible. Where I think alot of companies have gone wrong is that they expect their "niche" game to appeal to the masses. When, in fact, I"m betting no less than 80% of WoW players even know what constitutes an MMO beyond their own WoW-bound experiences. They have been lured in by RL friends, top notch advertising, the rep of the IP, and pop culture.
What it boils down to, for me, is that the MMO industry is maturing from its infancy. Success, in this industry, is relative. Right now, everyone believes that if an MMO doesn"t eclipse WoW"s subs within the first six months of release, its nothing less than epic failure. Can anyone remember when EQ was first released. They used to have population numbers on the server select screen. All of them were roughly 500-800 per server until they took that feature away. EQ had what? 20-25 servers max? So, give or take 20-30k people online at any given time? There"s more players than that on half a battlegroup on WoW. Yet, no one back then complained.
What I hope 38 studios and future MMO developers understand is that its important to base your budget, expectations, and design concept around who your aiming your game after. Not everyone likes high fantasy/RP or Sci-Fi, or Gore, Horror, etc. But everyone DOES like to have fun. Deliver a game that is true to its niche (or lackthereof), delivers what it intends and is, above all, very polished. Then, it will be successful.
tyen
EQ in a browser wait time: ____
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These prior games were intended to shake the ground of MMOs so that the masses can play an MMO that isn"t the same bullshit rinse and repeat fantasy genre. Everyone is begging for a massive MMO that isn"t high elf, dark elf fantasy crap.
These games were developed to do so. These companys aren"t looking for a "moderate success" they are trying to go balls to the walls and gather every gamer in the MMO spectrum. Developing a product that is sub-par and knowing this DOES NOT attract investors and that is NOT what these company"s want.
Unless you"re Turbine...
For example, Tabula Rasa wanted a FPS oriented MMO to attract gamers. What did they come up with? The same bullshit MMO with guns PLUS!!!!!!! no high end content.
Every single company that tried to shake things up and go a new evolved route, fails completely or has some mundane amount of users. It"s all halfass bullshit that looks AMAZING on paper but TERRIBLE when implemented; POTBS for example. They try to do their best but when it comes to implementation, they are so used to the traditional system, they lose their vision and put in the same exact crap we have had for years.
I want something new, exciting, and something I"ve never experienced. I don"t want the same rinse and repeat crap I"ve played for years. I want something that is challenging and diverts from what I"ve played for 9 years straight.
It"s all in the delivery, I think. I"m not saying a non-fantasy MMO can"t be successful or more successful than WoW, because I think the Sci-Fi subgenre has gone relatively untapped. (EVE is getting into some interesting things). But, I also don"t think fantasy is completely exhausted either. It"s how you present it, deliver it, and make it fun, imo.Tyen said: