Thats what i"ve been saying man. Thats what its going to take. Especially against Blizzard. Proving another segment of the market. Tossing yet another fantasy mmo into the mix isn"t going to "evolve" shit.Gecko said:
Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
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I cant think of a more short sighted observation. I guess if you assume that putting out a "fantasy" MMO, which any MMO is anyway, means you HAVE to restrict yourself to methods and styles contained in previous games then I can see where you might think like this, otherwise I don"t really understand this logic.Rayne said:
Innovation and evolution have absolutely nothing to do with genre. You may change between guns, swords, magic, tech, city scapes, forests, space.....but in the end that is just an overlay on the mechanics.
That overlay is very important but it has little to do with how advanced a game may be.
That overlay is very important but it has little to do with how advanced a game may be.
I cant think of a more short sighted observation. I guess if you assume that putting out a "fantasy" MMO, which any MMO is anyway, means you HAVE to restrict yourself to methods and styles contained in previous games then I can see where you might think like this, otherwise I don"t really understand this logic.Rayne said:
Keep fighting the good fight Rayne. NO to terror, and YES to Science Fiction!
?Fun & Polish??
Think anyone developing the last lot of MMO?s doesn?t know this little gem of wisdom? Not an attack on anyone in particular, it just keeps getting said as if it was some kind of revelation on the mount. Am not going to mention that company anymore, ?cos am sick of typing it, but those who shall not be named kept saying the same thing in 2004, it?s kind of a given now for any self respecting MMO. Do you think that anyone purposely develops their games to be a big steaming pile of rancid faeces?
?Fun & Polish??
Think anyone developing the last lot of MMO?s doesn?t know this little gem of wisdom? Not an attack on anyone in particular, it just keeps getting said as if it was some kind of revelation on the mount. Am not going to mention that company anymore, ?cos am sick of typing it, but those who shall not be named kept saying the same thing in 2004, it?s kind of a given now for any self respecting MMO. Do you think that anyone purposely develops their games to be a big steaming pile of rancid faeces?
Will take that to mean you"re thinking outside the box for the 38S Game. Still a glimmer of hope for all my dreams to come true with a "My little pony does Kunark MMO."Ngruk said:
I think a lot of them have lost touch with the market, or think they can predict what will be in vogue despite all evidence to the contrary. I also think alot of them focus too much on the technical instead of the esoterical. They make an MMO by numbers.. okay, big world here, dwarfs there, cast spell here, crazy looking monster there. Numbers going by, it"s dead. Ship it!Blitzspear said:
You couldn"t be further off. You"re right though, ANY mmo "could" be considered a rendition of ones fantasy, but I find it a bit odd that you would assume that this is what I meant. So for all intents and purposes, lets go with "fantasy" as "a rendition of heroes, dragons, swords, and sorcery", shall we? Its good to see you"re thinking beyond the usual "tweak this, upgrade that" crap so many others have repeated for a decade now. But:Ngruk said:
EVERY fantasy novel, tabletop game, rpg, and mmorpg EVER created, has told this SAME story over and over again, with one twist and style or another. You can tell that story 88 ways from Sunday, using whatever methods or style you like, but its STILL the same old story. The choices are far and wide in how you can choose to tell and follow it. But in the end, its the same story nonetheless. Dropping yet another version of that story doesn"t serve to evolve the mmo genre at all. To evolve the genre, you need a variety of "different" stories, so gamers can make the choice of which story interests them most. And to compete with Blizzard, it needs to be done with every bit as much polish and attention to detail.
Do I think that can be done with another version of the "same old"? Personally, I don"t think the genre can take too many more of these "visions".
One thing that boggles my mind when people talk about the success of WoW and how others must compete in this new world they justify themselves with reasons that have proven to be false in other video game genres.
I"ve already made this case before and I"ll just keep regurgitating it because idiotic thinking like this needs to stop.
I"ve already made this case before and I"ll just keep regurgitating it because idiotic thinking like this needs to stop.
Was there a point in there somewhere? Other video game genres? Do you mean to compare console gaming to mmo gaming? Clarification please, because I must have missed where you already explained all this.mutantmagnet said:
That reminds me of the folks that say there shouldn"t be any more fantasy books printed because they are all derivations of Tolkien. Its closed minded ignorance more than anything else. And you also seem to have a bit of confusion....stories are pretty universal....genre is what you are trying to say.
You can usually equate almost all books to another, all stories to another that came before. Yet that does not mean those stories are the same. Oh, they might be the same if look at an overview, a synopsis if you will. But when you break it down you start to see that the variation isn"t in the overview, its in the details.
Music repeats, books repeat, tv and movies repeat due to the nature of of the human condition. We tend to like certain themes, certain stories, certain outlooks in our entertainment.
The young man coming into his own and becoming a hero.
Saving the world against all odds...etc, etc.
The basis of these stories all share certain principles that engage us and entertain us and have for all history. And those stories aren"t relegated to specific genres, they tend to be universal.
Star Wars could have easily been fantasy, or a western, and the story would remain the same while the window dressing changed. In fact, I am sure the story was done dozens of times before.
Yes, yes, I know that the "window dressing" is what made Star Wars so very popular. I do understand that. But your point was about the stories and the repetition therein are a bane to MMO"s...and in that you are sadly mistaken.
A well made scifi game would probably do well, or a dark apocalypse, or a horror game...if they were well made. But by the same token the stories inside the game would remain very much the same; Hero fights evil, hero tries to survive, hero rescues those unable to help themselves, and blah blah blah into perpetuity.
It isn"t about the stories, its not about who is making the games, its all about the genre to you. You have spent pages and pages trying to wiggle around that point and express distaste in all the other myriad of options but when push comes to shove you just don"t want to play elves and dwarves anymore. You want a different genre.
Thats fine. But they aren"t doing it.
So please stop trying to come up with new ways to express a point that is simply expounded upon by saying I want something besides fantasy. 38 is doing fantasy, a lot of people like fantasy, if the game is done well then they will do well. End of story.
You can usually equate almost all books to another, all stories to another that came before. Yet that does not mean those stories are the same. Oh, they might be the same if look at an overview, a synopsis if you will. But when you break it down you start to see that the variation isn"t in the overview, its in the details.
Music repeats, books repeat, tv and movies repeat due to the nature of of the human condition. We tend to like certain themes, certain stories, certain outlooks in our entertainment.
The young man coming into his own and becoming a hero.
Saving the world against all odds...etc, etc.
The basis of these stories all share certain principles that engage us and entertain us and have for all history. And those stories aren"t relegated to specific genres, they tend to be universal.
Star Wars could have easily been fantasy, or a western, and the story would remain the same while the window dressing changed. In fact, I am sure the story was done dozens of times before.
Yes, yes, I know that the "window dressing" is what made Star Wars so very popular. I do understand that. But your point was about the stories and the repetition therein are a bane to MMO"s...and in that you are sadly mistaken.
A well made scifi game would probably do well, or a dark apocalypse, or a horror game...if they were well made. But by the same token the stories inside the game would remain very much the same; Hero fights evil, hero tries to survive, hero rescues those unable to help themselves, and blah blah blah into perpetuity.
It isn"t about the stories, its not about who is making the games, its all about the genre to you. You have spent pages and pages trying to wiggle around that point and express distaste in all the other myriad of options but when push comes to shove you just don"t want to play elves and dwarves anymore. You want a different genre.
Thats fine. But they aren"t doing it.
So please stop trying to come up with new ways to express a point that is simply expounded upon by saying I want something besides fantasy. 38 is doing fantasy, a lot of people like fantasy, if the game is done well then they will do well. End of story.
Why not? Pretty much every one of these games made are basically niche now anyway aside from WOW. Until I actually see something of substance, I actually do expect s38 to be another one of those. Yeah Curt is shooting for some WOW dethroning and he has some heavy hitters in his corner, but the decision to go "fantasy" versus "sci-fi", for example won"t really be the determing factor for its success.Rayne said:
Anyone know if they still plan on using SOE? If so, this game is doomed before they even start.
Yes, there are only five stories. Everything else is just a variation on those five basic tramlines, the devil is in the details, etc.
Sounds about right, doesn"t mean they didn"t start out with the fun and polished mantra. It?s only when they find out how hard it is to actually make a fun game in a massive and complex persistent world that they start throwing out the special sauce ingredients from the train wreck ? Age of Conan, soon to be a store near you!Twobit Whore said:
Big_w_powah
Trakanon Raider
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Dip shits on segweys that think mix-matching their shirt and helmet colors somehow makes them "witty" or "fun"?Gecko said:Until there is a proven market in MMOs for anything but fantasy, it"ll continue to rule the roost.
To use a visual analogy, non fantasy MMOs are a la this:
Again, you"re entitled to that opinion. Incidently, I enjoy a good fantasy story as much as the next guy. I don"t think fantasy stories are a bane to mmos at all. I think they"re "becoming" a bane to the genre in general. And i"ve been saying this all along.Gaereth said:
How many times do I have to agree to this? I"m not saying they have to switch up and make something else. But its not the end of the story. Not by a longshot. Because by now, countless people are primed to see this company"s product give Blizzard a run for thier money. Just like they were with Sigil and Brad McQuaid when they made so many familiar claims. I"m not questioning thier commitment in the slightest. I"m just very skeptical of the subject matter they"ve chosen to pursue the task.
Not saying that there should not be anymore fantasy books but look at it from the point of an investor. Just how many New York Times best seller lists have the fantasy books made the top ten on in say the last 3 decades??Gaereth said:
It is one thing to write a book (very little to no cost actually) vs throwing 10"s of millions into a game project. I don"t agree with Rayne much on this whole thread but I can see his point of oversaturation of the market and the future money shying away.
I love high fantasy but damn it really is getting to be the same old uninspired thing with every game coming out.
Oh and Big W: here"s a hint, can you say niche market for the Segway and no universal acceptance?
Exactly. I don"t expect everyone to agree with everything I say. But what i"m seeing here, is the huge potential for immeasurable damage to the genre. 38 Studios intends to compete with Blizzard. Now, I don"t think that in itself is a bad thing mind you, and I wish them luck. If they succeed, it"ll be a great thing for the genre to have two high-profile games competing for the slot of top dog, providing an ever-improving experience in the process. But heres where it gets a bit more into it:gnomad said:
Should they fail (and i"m certainly NOT hoping they do), how do you think it will impact the future of the mmo genre?
I think it"ll be quite some time before we see another WoW calibre mmo come to fruition. Fantasy or otherwise. Because no investor will want to take the risk. And THAT, will stop this genre dead in its tracks.
Damage to the genre? It"s a flipping video game. If another fantasy game flops then oh well. If anything it would usher in exactly what you want.. something non fantasy.
What part of "who"s gonna want to take the risk to make it?" don"t you understand?Twobit Whore said: