Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

It"s got nothing to do with being social or not and everything to do with it being a goddamn hobby, and not just a game. More people = better, period, in every single case. No, you don"t need massive 500+ member guilds to have fun, but to say that you experience anywhere near the same level of play on a server with 1k players as you do with 10k players is a straight up fuckin lie. More robust trading, more raiding guilds, more materials entering the market for tradeskills, more PvP partners, more PvP targets, more of everything that allows you to experience every portion of the game that you want to.

The only drawback to more people are servers getting lagged out, that"s just about it. So that"s what I"m saying -- design bigger, better, faster servers to house more people.

But what does that have to do with the matter at hand? Bigger servers have their advantages, but we"re talking about the ability to have multiple classes on the same character. I"m not sure how one is a good alternative to the other...maybe that"s not what you"re suggesting.

He"s saying if you have enough people you don"t have to look as hard for a tank to join your group. I still like the idea that I or someone I already know and am guilded with can simply fill a different role and gear that role more expeditiously, then again I liked FFXI"s system alright too.

With more people, the issue becomes moot. The fact of the matter is it"s easier to sub out your 5th X class than it is your 2nd X class, especially if you"re talking about a key position in the raid like off tank, or healer. It allows greater roster depth, a more robust gearing of that roster via character swapouts, it allows you to keep a sizeable cushion of players in the guild over the limit while being able to stick to the bottom line. It allows you to form 5 mans better, 10 mans better, it allows you to meet more people, to talk with them, to share your hobby with.

Will you ever get rid of the fact that if X player isn"t online you can"t do shit? No. But to require less people to do more to enjoy your hobby certainly isn"t my idea of good design.

Ngruk said:

I"ll laugh my butt off and ask out loud how on earth the rat dropped a "Rusted Claymore"

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or worse, the dire wolf that drops an epic level 50 required axe. Maybe he ate the wielder? My, wolf, what a verrrry large stomach you have...

In a different kind, I"m also a big fan of useful loot. What irks me isn"t the rat that drops a rusted claymore. It"s the rat that drops a "mangy rat pelt", which, despite its name, isn"t a pelt, but merely an inventory bag filler until you get to town to sell back your loot.

The "grey" stuff that drops from mobs in WoW, or its" EQ, LOTRO, AoC equivalent is nothing. I"m not advocating that rats drop cash instead of sellable parts (which is even worse, from a "realistic" point of view), rather, I"m advocating that anything that drops from a mob has a use. Direct (equipment, consumables, reagents) or indirect (tradeskills stuff).

I am and always have been a "realistic loot" guy. I"d argue to the high heavens that boss mobs that have large loot tables should represent that loot visually (hear the screams from design right now?).

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And very identifiable names. The demon Balzaxis (or whatever) better drops "Balzaxis" Thunder Axe". I"m a big fan of identifiable loot. From its simple name, you should either be able to know instantly where it comes from, or, if you"d rather, know its stats.

When we downed Nagafen I can remember EVERY item being an "end of the world" DR for someone. Now I am running back and forth in Kara and there are many mobs dropping multiple purples that NO ONE rolls for.

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That"s because you"ve overgrown the zone. See my previous post: no one should feel that it has to endlessly re-run a zone for drops.

I absolutely HATE the fact (and I know it"s not random) that I end a decent quest line and the 3-4 items to choose from, not one is useable by my class, but worse yet if they were appropriate level gear they aren"t items my class uses...

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After having experience the LOTRO scheme, I "slightly" second that view. The LOTRO scheme is simpler: almost every step of a quest line yields one item. You either use it, or vendor it (I would probably offer a choice of "item or direct gold", because I"m not fan of encumbering my backpack just for the purpose of running to the NPC merchant to cash in). While it means lots of items land on your lap, it also means most of the quests feel "useless".

On the other hand, the TBC scheme of "4-6 quest rewards for about everyone" isn"t much more satisfying either; 80% of the time, the reward is simply not that good compared to what I got, either thru a different quest line, or a simple dungeon run.

I"m afraid there"s no good answer to that conundrum. If equipment rewards are frequent, most of it gets vendored anyway. If equipment rewards are rare, everybody ends up looking the same, as they don"t have much choice.

Done Prince twice now as well, 1 as healer 1 at MT, 2-0, fun fight. I decided last night that the doorway option is the worst option imo. The two critical factors in RL combat are firepower and mobility. If you doorway the party for the fight your chances of an "unlucky" infernal go up exponentially.

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There"s a "right" position for that fight. At that position, your MT has no chance to get infernaled. There"s only one infernal drop position between you and the MT, and if that happens, then yes, all your melee dps are mostly screwed. But that"s not common, and the only problem is if it happens during phase 2 when dps is essential (note that, if you have good meleers and good healers, they can still run thru the infernal back to the door 5s before weakness, "just in case"). The safe point is pretty much idiot-proof, and, if you wipe, recovery is easy (nobody dies under the Prince"s path and has to be summoned from entrance).

The "move around" strat is pretty much the way it"s intended to be done, but it"s far more difficult to execute.

There is absolutely no way I would purchase a game that allowed you to change your class at the push of a button. That is by far the stupidest idea I have ever heard for a MMORPG. It"s not only the "immersion" that would suffer (which has suffered more than enough since BGs); it"s the depth of the game. If anyone could be anything anytime they want the game would be flat; no variety whatsoever. Personally I"m completely against the idea of hybrids as well. All hybrids have done in the past is throw off class balancing in the overall game. It"s a cheap way to squeeze another class into the game.

This World of Warcraft mentality of "let"s change everything we possibly can to make the game easier" is ridiculous. Sure being able to choose what class you want to be for every fight would be more convenient; but it also ruins the entire experience. More convenient does not always mean more fun.

Not really a big fan of entirely changing your class at the push of a button, but they should definitely implement something that lets you pass soulbound items across characters on the same account. Given how easy it is to level multiple characters in a game like WoW, that would be a small inconvenience to pay for not having shit go to waste.

I really have no problem with no ability to switch between classes, but I would like a much greater commitment to class balance from developers. Tipically, if things are overpowered PvE, they get nerfed very quickly, but if classes are overpowered relative to each other they get nerfed very very very slowly.

I greatly enjoy WoW, but look at this shit:

2v2 Rankings - Arena Junkies

No 2v2 in the Top 10 without a druid.
#1-27 (with ties) has 24 druids.
Of 97 teams (including currently unpartnered rogues), 75 have druids.

Needless to say, no one else comes close to druid in representation, although warrior and rogue are pushing bimodal status behind them.

In 3"s 1-99 (with ties):

58 Druids, no more than one per-team, ever.
20 of the other teams are RMP.
60 teams with rogues, 62 rogues due to two D/R/R teams

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I just think it"s ridiculous that even if you"re looking for a particular class, you also need to find a particular specced class.

When I was leveling new druid, I was able to pretty much do everything, tank, heal or dps, in all the 1-60 dungeons. As soon as I got to outlands though, I had to settle for one role, even if I had suitable gear, I couldn"t get away with it with the wrong spec (no NS = no oh-shit save).

It"s really shitty, especially for classes like warrior, hunter, shaman or druid. It"s more like having 20+ different classes than 9, and it shouldn"t be like that. Sometimes it can be hard enough just FINDING the class you want, nevermind having to make sure they"re the right spec too. There should be a set-up phase before you start a dungeon where you can change your spec and gear load-out. That way it wouldn"t be as stupid trying to get a pug together.

How do you throw hunter in there? All 3 specs are ranged dps.

James said:

With more people, the issue becomes moot. The fact of the matter is it"s easier to sub out your 5th X class than it is your 2nd X class, especially if you"re talking about a key position in the raid like off tank, or healer. It allows greater roster depth, a more robust gearing of that roster via character swapouts, it allows you to keep a sizeable cushion of players in the guild over the limit while being able to stick to the bottom line. It allows you to form 5 mans better, 10 mans better, it allows you to meet more people, to talk with them, to share your hobby with.

Will you ever get rid of the fact that if X player isn"t online you can"t do shit? No. But to require less people to do more to enjoy your hobby certainly isn"t my idea of good design.

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Right. So rather than being able to do more with less people, you would prefer there simply be more people. I certainly would agree that WoW"s "LET"S ADD SOME SERVERS!" mentality has been counterproductive, and their lack of willingness to do anything about low-pop servers is nothing but a crass moneygrab, but I like knowing the people in my guild. If it were up to me we"d never have more than 25% over a raid on our raiding roster, just to cushion attendance. Don"t forget also the whole reason Vhex brought this up -- rotting loot. I"ve been trying to avoid the question, because I don"t want to seem like I"m going for an epeen grab, but what are you up to in WoW these days? I think it"s pertinent because Vhex and I are speaking froma a high-end raiding perspective, things that would be helpful and beneficial to us, be it tactically or just because we"re fucking tired of loot no one can use. Also from my personal perspective, I do not like levelling alts. I have an alt I absolutely love who I haven"t levelled since we were in BWL. She"s 53. If I were levelling a shaman on my main character I have no doubt I"d be done with it by now, and I"d be damn well geared, too. For three specs.

Genjiro said:

Not really a big fan of entirely changing your class at the push of a button, but they should definitely implement something that lets you pass soulbound items across characters on the same account.

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Exactly. The biggest problem of a FF-style job system is that, if you want multiple jobs, you need to grind. Period. You can"t quest - you"ve already done the quests. So acquiring experience for a new job requires pure grinding - or enough quest lines in parallel to potentially level every single class, which is a massive endeavour.

It works fine in an asian-style MMO like FF, because that"s on par with the game. You grind to level. With a modern MMO, where questing is the norm, it"s a a fail. Unless, on your second job, you can do all the quests again... in which case, it"s an alt, with a shared name, and a shared bank.

As for the identity problems raised, people have different opinions. Zhen wants all his "alternates" to be called Zhen; he has no problems with Zhen being a level 70 war or a level 48 priest. For others, there"s a "dissonance". I am Ukerric when I"m a dwarf healer. That"s the identity of my character; regardless of the game, Ukerric (which plays off "Un cleric" from french) is a dwarven - or close - healer. When I"m a tank, I"m called Huldo and usually massive. I have other names, and they all fit roles. Ukerric being a rogue is... impossible for me. And when people see Ukerric online, they know I"m the healer.

The biggest problem of a FF-style job system is that, if you want multiple jobs, you need to grind. Period. You can"t quest - you"ve already done the quests.

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This is an assumption. I"m sure Blizzard could open up quest lines to you if they wanted to. It does call into question the logic of keeping your reputation (if indeed that would be a feature) but that"s going back to realism again. Bad armchair designers!* Bad! *smacks with newspaper*

*As opposed to the other kind of designers?

Just keeping those interested up to date.

morpheme - Press Releases - www.mcvuk.com

FoghornDeadhorn said:

Right. So rather than being able to do more with less people, you would prefer there simply be more people. I certainly would agree that WoW"s "LET"S ADD SOME SERVERS!" mentality has been counterproductive, and their lack of willingness to do anything about low-pop servers is nothing but a crass moneygrab, but I like knowing the people in my guild. If it were up to me we"d never have more than 25% over a raid on our raiding roster, just to cushion attendance. Don"t forget also the whole reason Vhex brought this up -- rotting loot. I"ve been trying to avoid the question, because I don"t want to seem like I"m going for an epeen grab, but what are you up to in WoW these days? I think it"s pertinent because Vhex and I are speaking froma a high-end raiding perspective, things that would be helpful and beneficial to us, be it tactically or just because we"re fucking tired of loot no one can use. Also from my personal perspective, I do not like levelling alts. I have an alt I absolutely love who I haven"t levelled since we were in BWL. She"s 53. If I were levelling a shaman on my main character I have no doubt I"d be done with it by now, and I"d be damn well geared, too. For three specs.

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Again, if you"re swapping people in and out, like it"s much easier to do in larger raids, then the loot isn"t going to rot until well after you should be done with the zone, but can"t because you"re waiting on RNG to blow his load in your mouth for that second glaive. Of course, if we"re talking about WoW now, we"re talking about a flawed example in the first place. Sebudai made a fairly comprehensive post on the EJ boards a bit back about exactly what was wrong with it, but the summary is that when you got fucking Moonkin bracers dropping it doesn"t matter how many subjobs or not you will allow your players. Shitty loot is shitty fucking loot.

Me? I"m MTing SC"s second raid group (by pure accident ) and soaking loot otherwise on my PvP reroll. Why PvP reroll? Because Horde PvE is a fucking wasteland and Blizzard"s bullshit policy of "WAIT AND SEE" fucked me in the ass for far too long to remain comfortable there. Here"s a question for you, what server have you been playing on recently? Last I checked it was a low pop PvE server, no? I can tell you why Zehn wants the job system, because he"s fucked up like that, but all you"ve known is low pop PvE Horde, which is fucked for many more reasons than not having a job system.

Let"s make a clear distinction here, though. "Being able" to do more with less people will always, always translate into "required" to do more with less people, without fail. It"s the nature of the hobby. So no, I don"t feel that in order to enjoy the game I"ll have to level up two to three entirely different classes, be they subjobs, or alts, or anything. Throwing out the argument that OMGZ LESS PPL I KNOW BETTAR is fairly retarded, non-applicable, and shouldn"t be designed around because LESS is WORSE.

Again, if you"re swapping people in and out,

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Which is so fun and awesome, especially to do for loot considerations. I guess we"re going to have to agree to disagree, you clearly think your setup with a massive guild with more than one raid group is superior to a smaller, tighter-knit guild. I wholly disagree. There is no convincing one of the other on this especially if you"re going to just flatly call my opinion "fairly retarded." How about this, I"ll agree to disagree and you can agree to be right in your own mind.

Two things.

1) You"d still have to work to level up your characters. This "TOUCH OF A BUTTON BAM!" shit is silly. You sound like assholes who point out how with JUST A TOUCH OF A BUTTON BAM! my paladin can tank or heal. Nevermind the fact it took me 2~3 fucking months to get a tank suit, and that was -after- we geared our 3 warriors which was another 3 months by itself.

2) You"re falling back on roleplay arguments which have no merit in a mechanics discussion. You"re Ukerrik the rouge. Fine, don"t level up alt classes. You can still roll alts. In fact alts would still be popular since people enjoy rolling different races. Even I would still have Zehn and Vhex (and fuck you guys for constantly mispelling Zehn. Srsly.)

As for job system vs. heirloom, nothing says you can"t have both either. Take EQ AA"s, associate every AA with a quest. Open up only the right quests to the right classes (generic/arch-type/class specific). Add a shitload more to account not just for AA"s, but for base abilities, all the normal stat increments normally associated with leveling. Done.

Again, job system isn"t going to prevent you from forming a massive 500 person guild if that"s your thing. It"s not like people are going to log on one day and say "Hey, we don"t need these fuckers!" and then boot everyone. Casual guilds will still exist, holy fucking jesus. Guilds that invite everybody with a pulse will still exist.

Oh, and I already mentioned how this would be largely dependant on guilds being able to pick the loot from bosses after a victory. Try to keep up James.

Swapping people in and out *is* fun, if you"re talking about entire raid nights. No one likes to have a 100% attendance requirement, whether you"re raiding 2 days a week or 5 days a week. The only way to mitigate that requirement, while still maintaining progression, is to have *more people*. 25% of your 25 man raid is 6-7 players, 25% of your 50 man raid is 12-13 players. Which one allows you to cover the bases with every class?

And yes, saying less people = tighter knit is fairly retarded, because it doesn"t. I know everyone that chooses to log on, I know everyone"s voice that I"ve raided with, I know their personalities. The only reason you think you"ll get "lost in the crowd" within a higher population is because you"ve never been in the crowd in the first place.

Zehn - Vhex said:

Again, job system isn"t going to prevent you from forming a massive 500 person guild if that"s your thing. It"s not like people are going to log on one day and say "Hey, we don"t need these fuckers!" and then boot everyone. Casual guilds will still exist, holy fucking jesus. Guilds that invite everybody with a pulse will still exist.

Oh, and I already mentioned how this would be largely dependant on guilds being able to pick the loot from bosses after a victory. Try to keep up James.

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It"s not about prevention, it"s about requirement. You have a job system in place from the get go, in a game designed around it from the ground up, and you will essentially require every player to one day take up MULTIPLE jobs at the very least, if not all of them. It"s just a matter of time. So be it 500 players or 50 players, or 5, they will all need those jobs.

The point here is that you"re suggesting the job system is some kind of cure for a problem *that shouldn"t exist in the first place*, and is easily solved by simply introducing more players into the pool to pick from. It"s a non-solution to a non-problem at best, and contrary to the tried and true class system that millions upon millions of people have come to respect and prefer.