Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

They"ve been doing that in WoW with the faction leaders, since those are supposed to be hittable targets. Other then that though, inflation is a good thing. Going back and godmoding old assbeat mobs with a few buddies is fun.

The auction house in Orgrimmar/Ironforge pretty much makes those place the central trading hub as well and many people still idle there. The expansion hubs in WoW so far have been pretty nice. Granted there"s only been one but Dalaran looks to be a good new platform. Disallowing low level players (without help from friends) access has -significantly- cut down on the number of people begging me for gold/help running through RFC/gold selling spam.

I think this is one of the area"s that WoW really struck a good balance.

Gecko said:

Personally, I stay as far away from game development companies as I can. I did database design work in the 90s for one and it was a terrible environment. This was one of the better companies in a less competitive time, too.

They have horrible turnover rates, very bad ratio"s of success, and tend to beds of nepotism. They also try to leverage people"s love of games to allow for a shoddy, underpaid work experience.

I love games and especially RPGs and MMOs, but as a professional programmer and database guru if I were in the market for work I wouldn"t go near one.

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I also do database work, Gecko, and I couldn"t agree more. If you want to work longer hours, for less pay, and smaller job security, get a job in the gaming industry. I wish Curt and 38S all the best, but the entire industry stinks of exactly what you said: nepotism and leverage against people who genuinely love games.

+1 on the "programmers who wont work for a game company" theme.

I have been doing DB development and admin for over a decade, and there"s almost no way I"d work at a game company. Corporate IT work pays better, has better hours, the companies are more stable, and the work is way less hysterical/maniacal.

My wife said that I should work for a game company because I love games and programming, and I told her that I"d be happy to if she didn"t mind living in a city where the cost of living is double what ours is, with my requisite cut in pay, and my double/triple amount of hours worked, for even more frustration and post-work griping, and I am always either depressed or in a bad mood. She withdrew her proposal.

Fuck that. Games are fun, but I bet what happened to Brad is a lot more common than people think, he just gets the publicity. Corporate IT for me. It just keeps on paying the bills and my life is way too peaceful and simple to consider game programming.

The best seems obvious: Creative Director or whatever the title is. Gets to partake in the design and mechanic decisions, but doesn"t have to deal with "outsiders" (investors etc) too much, doesn"t have to do personell management, and doesn"t have to do grunt work. Basically whatever Tigole"s job seems to be.


This is based solely on uneducated opinion.

Having the game live and die by my decisions seems like the only fun part of working with gaming *shrug*

A phrase that I hear thrown around a lot and that I think holds very true: "If you think you could be happy doing anything else, do it." I"m one of those who isn"t going to be happy doing anything else. If my primary interests were pay, free time, and job security, then going into the game industry would be crazy. However, I"m more interested in doing something that I can be passionate about, fully engaged in, and that I find rewarding. Having a job where I can spend 80% of my time browsing the web might sound fun, but I"ve had those jobs and really can"t imagine spending the rest of my life like that.

For better or for worse, the game industry is a place for people who just aren"t going to be happy anywhere else. This may change to some degree as the industry matures, but as long as there are enough properly skilled people who accept the conditions, there"s little impetus for change.

I think that"s why I like modding so much splok. It"s all the fun of programming a game with none of the hassle. Granted there"s no fanfaires and having cosplaying groupies snorting coke off my dick but I consider it a fair trade.

Elerion said:

The best seems obvious: Creative Director or whatever the title is. Gets to partake in the design and mechanic decisions, but doesn"t have to deal with "outsiders" (investors etc) too much, doesn"t have to do personell management, and doesn"t have to do grunt work. Basically whatever Tigole"s job seems to be.


This is based solely on uneducated opinion.

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Creative Director / Design Director / Game Director / Whatever random other title that covers the position is kind of a double edged sword. If someone is good at it they do get to be involved in the content design and mechanics design but they also have to deal with outsiders (quite a bit actually) and they do have to do personnel management and maintain team communication. An unhappy or insular design team is not going to create a good game no matter how you look at it.

And while a creative director may not *have* to do grunt work, if they are *unwilling* to do it then I"d be skeptical that they are good at the position in the first place. The best creative directors are the ones who really want to be doing the nuts and bolts design but realize that doing so is a lot like trying to replace a fuse while driving a car.

Letting go of something enough to let others build upon a foundation without trying to meddle too much is one of the hardest lessons to learn.

Really though, any position in the game industry with the right company and the right team is a wholly enjoyable and rewarding experience, I"d recommend it. The trick is finding the right team and the right company to work with, which is pretty much true of any job.

Zehn - Vhex said:

having cosplaying groupies snorting coke off my dick

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How do I get this and where do I sign up?

Granted I"ve done the occasional line off of a hookers ass crack but the other way around peaks my interest.

Sounds like it would be painful when Zelda"s manbeard touches the head.

I can see what you guys are saying about the game industry being rough to work in, and particularly stressful around launch time or before a big expansion.

At the same time though, I think there would be something special about it. Then again, I"m more attracted to the position of game designer rather than a full-on programmer, but I think it could sort of apply to both. Imagine, for example, being the guy that was behind the design of Lower Guk and seeing all the fun people had in your dungeon to the point that they still talk about it 10 years later as being an amazing dungeon. That would be incredibly satisfying imo.

Then again, on the flipside you could have people totally ignore or hate a dungeon or zone you worked very hard on, and that would be discouraging. I guess you"d just have to use that experience to improve your designs and figure out what players really find fun.

I dunno, I think I"d love it personally.

Grave said:

Imagine, for example, being the guy that was behind the design of Lower Guk and seeing all the fun people had in your dungeon to the point that they still talk about it 10 years later as being an amazing dungeon. That would be incredibly satisfying imo.

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feeding and actually seeing your family is even more satisfying. But hey if you wanna work for half the pay at twice the hours who am I to argue.

Bongk said:

feeding and actually seeing your family is even more satisfying. But hey if you wanna work for half the pay at twice the hours who am I to argue.

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In one of those "secrets of the game programmers" type books, the head guy at Bethesda said that anyone actually looking to make a living should stay the heck away from game programming.

If I was in my early 20s and had someone paying the bills, sure, why not. Then again, when I was that age, getting drunk every night of the week amde a lot of sense too.

Venjenz said:

Then again, when I was that age, getting drunk every night of the week amde a lot of sense too.

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still does!

Grave said:

Then again, I"m more attracted to the position of game designer rather than a full-on programmer, but I think it could sort of apply to both. Imagine, for example, being the guy that was behind the design of Lower Guk and seeing all the fun people had in your dungeon to the point that they still talk about it 10 years later as being an amazing dungeon. That would be incredibly satisfying imo.

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As a designer, If you"re lucky enough to get in which seems a matter of timing, nepotism, and location then what do you do if your game is mediocre? How many good opportunites are there?

It doesn"t seem hard to find guys to design levels and implement creative/artistic stuff. The problem is if you are one of the 99% who doesn"t have a hit project, then your career path leads to Starbucks. Even worse, consider some of the games that were business successes: Myth, The Sims, or Vanguard*just kidding there*?

Some of my favorite early games were MUDs which had amazing designs, stories, and did crazy things with very limited technologies. Several of these guys tried to get into game companies and had no luck. Meanwhile, I see insiders without a shred of the talent these guys had working nonstop.

It seems games are now made by mostly large corporate entities with overworked underpaid IT staffs, and creative groups on tight leashes with final direction from suits who are concerned with bottom numbers and excel sheets and could care less about class balance or dungeon designs or heart.

Sadly, even companies that seem to have some independence like 38 Studios seem to be hiring insiders and retreads, and not looking at the fresh, powerful indy designers who have amazing innovative work, but no connections, nepotism, or corporate backing.

You seem a very smart fellow, Grave, but realize talent and creative brilliance are probably more of an impediment to success in the games industry than a help.

Best of luck if that"s the path you want to take, but you might be better served channeling that energy and writing the next Harry Potter novel, or making a cheap but great film and selling it.

That"s a pretty bleak picture that you"re paining there. It certainly isn"t for everyone, and if you"re easily dissuaded, then it probably isn"t for you. However, I don"t think the outlook is quite as bleak as you would have people believe. The game industry is still growing, and so long as that"s the case, there will be a demand for people.

Of course, the sheer volume of resumes that game companies get each week from everyone in the world who think it would be cool to make games makes it difficult for any one person to get noticed. This makes having experience doubly important. People that already have a released title or two under their belt naturally have huge advantage, but this is similar to any industry really. If someone has successfully performed a job in the past, they"re a much safer bet than someone who hasn"t.

That doesn"t make it hopeless for people without experience though, it just means that they need to have realistic expectations. You"re not going to get a game designer position on a major title with no experience. However, if you spend a huge amount of time learning and working in whatever your discipline is to create a solid portfolio, you can probably get an entry level position somewhere in the industry.

Of course, if you"re really picky about what company you work for or what type of platform/title you want to work on, then you"ll have a harder time, naturally. Game projects can take years, so the process of staffing up can be a long time in the works. You could be a perfect fit for a company, but if they don"t have a position for you at the moment, there"s not much you can do. On the plus side though, there are literally hundreds of game companies out there. If you really want a job in the industry and you"re willing to put the time into a portfolio, you can get one.

The best thing to do is get an understanding of what positions are out there and what skills those positions really call for. Find the position that you want to shoot for and spend a year or two honing your skills and putting together a portfolio that demonstrates that you can do exactly what the job calls for. For example, if you want to be a level designer, grab a game with a level editor and start making levels. Once yours are as good as the ones that actually shipped with the game, start applying.

Gecko said:

Sadly, even companies that seem to have some independence like 38 Studios seem to be hiring insiders and retreads, and not looking at the fresh, powerful indy designers who have amazing innovative work, but no connections, nepotism, or corporate backing.

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Gotta say it pains me to say, but this really stuck out and for the most part I have to agree. Hopefully the 3 amigos, Curt, Bob, and Todd make the difference somehow between stale MMO #35252 since WoW came out. BTW, can we get those 3 on tape doing the 3 amigo thing?