Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

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gnomad_foh

shitlord
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Daezuel said:
Gotta say it pains me to say, but this really stuck out and for the most part I have to agree. Hopefully the 3 amigos, Curt, Bob, and Todd make the difference somehow between stale MMO #35252 since WoW came out. BTW, can we get those 3 on tape doing the 3 amigo thing?
38 Studios is just going to prove again what we have seen so many times in the genre: INCEST IS NOT BEST

Maybe someday some company other then Blizz will hire some outsiders and we will see another decent product. Until then I expect the same old crap over and over again with different pixel skins.
 

Gecko_foh

shitlord
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gnomad said:
38 Studios is just going to prove again what we have seen so many times in the genre: INCEST IS NOT BEST

Maybe someday some company other then Blizz will hire some outsiders and we will see another decent product. Until then I expect the same old crap over and over again with different pixel skins.
Don"t get me wrong, hiring talent within the industry in some regards is wise. Network programmers from SOE or audio people from Blizzard should be poached.

My issues are with the modus operandi in the games/MMO industry, and especially with design and development.

Still, some games like Fallout 3 still make me turn my head and have hope for innovation and fun.

I do agree that we"re getting too much evolution, and too little innovation, especially in the MMO genre. I think we need more beacons of success like A Tale in the Desert and other small developers to get more popular and more media attention, before we"ll get change.

I also think you give Blizzard too much credit. They do not innovate, they re-engineer and make best of breed from others creations. I wouldn"t expect anything different from them. Why do the hard work of finding what sells, when you can leverage what appears popular, polish it, and make coin off others ideas?

The problem is others are trying to be Blizzard, as Mythic has shown with Warhammer, and Funcom, with AOC.

I know nothing of 38 Studios project, but I"d wager it"s a diku EQ -> WOW implementation with classes, levels, and many of the other "features" that have evolved, with a focus on products and media.

As of now, my only interest in insiders is if Carmack and iD would finally spend some coin and make a truly innovative MMO.

I have hopes for SW:TOR, but then I realize EA runs them and Lucasarts has hooks into the project, and it suffers from the same corporate stranglehold of holding back innovation and change.
 

Froofy-D_foh

shitlord
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Just to offer some anecdotal evidence to the contrary, my roommate and several friends work at EA Tiburon. They mostly all enjoy their jobs and are paid pretty well. Yeah turnover rate is high, but from what I"ve heard, so is the inept employee ratio. Gotta weed through a lot of people to find the good ones. Another guy I know works for NCSoft on Guild Wars. He says its a great job.
 

Zarcath

Silver Squire
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Some of what"s being discussed here is going on over in the

Working in the game industry is just like any other job. I don"t know why people have the misconception that if it"s video game related it should be candy and gum drops 24/7. There"s pitfalls and setbacks and rewards and satisfaction. It"s not for everyone. Obviously if your only goal is to make a lot of cash, there are other better opportunities out there. As for myself, and I"d wager for Splok, there isn"t any other field we"d feel comfortable in.
 

findar_foh

shitlord
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Gecko said:
As of now, my only interest in insiders is if Carmack and iD would finally spend some coin and make a truly innovative MMO.
i could never see this happening. id has long since about game engines more then the game itself.
 

Gecko_foh

shitlord
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findar said:
i could never see this happening. id has long since about game engines more then the game itself.
We need a new technology built around MMOs more than we need public quests or more "better" PVP.

Something, anything that will provide a paradigm shift away from the diku-based static-world leveling clones we see released over and over.
 

twincannon_foh

shitlord
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Gecko said:
We need a new technology built around MMOs more than we need public quests or more "better" PVP.

Something, anything that will provide a paradigm shift away from the diku-based static-world leveling clones we see released over and over.
I don"t think we don"t need new tech for that, just developers who are comfortable in making a unique and interesting world rather than treadmill content.

The biggest thing the MMO world needs technologically is better connections. If/when something like fiber to the home becomes commonplace and you can reliably market to that as a standard, amazing things could be done.
 

Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,731
2,055
Gecko said:
I do agree that we"re getting too much evolution, and too little innovation, especially in the MMO genre.
This, definitely. Too many mmo"s are a derivative of a derivative of a derivative. Recently, there has been way too much evolution and simplynorevolution- as clich? as that saying is, it"s the most concise way to put it. At this point it"s not about adding and refining what"sin the game(more classes, more races, more lore, tweaked mechanics, etc.), it"s all about how youplay the game.

You"ll know the difference between evolution and revolution within the first 10minutes of playing the next breakthrough game because it willfeeltotally different than all the other mmo"s out there. The current paradigm of mmo"s is honestly about as refined as it"s going to get. What"s called for now, I agree, is a paradigm shift that fundamentally changes the way we think about mmo"s and most importantly how we play mmo"s. There are a few key components that the next groundbreaker will absolutely need to have, and yes, as someone mentioned, most of them will rely on new technology to make them feasible in an mmo (but not all of them).

On a side note, for those that were talking about this, I happen to be one of those guys that managed to get hired by a very "promising" game company based 2500 miles from where I live, with zero formal experience and no inside connections. I spent more than 2 years sending resumes and staying persistent (see annoying), and eventually one random day in October I got a phone call I never really expected to receive. My end of the conversation consisted of "Yes? Yes. Definitely." and "As soon as possible", and I was on a red eye to California for an interview within a week. All I brought with me was a portfolio of what I considered my best design material, and a lot of rehearsed answers to questions I hoped they would be asking me. Despite almost passing out in the middle of the third interview from lack of sleep and food, I guess they liked what I had enough to call me back the next day and offer me a job.

They needed me to move fast (I now know why), so I was in my ridiculously overpacked car and headed west within 20 days of getting the green light. I knew it was going to be a long trip when my old ass car barely made it over the mountains in Tennessee, and things got really bad when a deranged homeless guy threatened to stab me one night at a gas station outside of Oklahoma City because he thought I stole his watch (despite the fact that I wasn"t even wearing a watch).

My radiator finally blew in the middle of the desert near Barstow (there were no bats, thank God), so that set me back a little. I didn"t really have the money to stay in hotels, so aside from sleeping for about 4 hours at a rest stop in Memphis and another 2 hours at a gas station in New Mexico I made the drive from Virginia to California straight through. By the time I limped into Escondido I was literally sweating coffee and probably as deranged as the homeless guy that tried to stab me.

I didn"t know a soul west of Colorado, and I didn"t have time to find a place to live before I left, so I hit up craigs list at a public library as soon as I got there, looking for a place to rent a room. I lucked out and found a place fast, and ended up moving in with a surfer guy, a hippie chick and a strange, portly guy named Damon who bought random shit like ladders from his brother in China and sold them outside of Lowes.

I won"t go into details about the job or the company itself, but whoever said working for a mmo gaming company was a lot like working at a normal corporation wasn"t exactly correct- at least not the company I worked for. To be sure, I quickly found many of the things Gecko mentioned earlier to be true. The industry as a whole was a hotbed of nepotism- this was painfully obvious. The egos in play and the drama they induced on a daily basis were epic in proportion. There were grudges between some of the old hands that had been festering for years, and the dogmatism, backstabbing and insidiousness that was borne from these grudges constantly ground the game's progress to a halt. Scandal, both game-related and personal, was so common that the people who had been in the business even a relatively short time barely even noticed it. No idea was safe, and no job secure. It was kill or be killed, and no pretense about it.

On the other hand, I got to meet and work with some of the most creative and talented people in the business- famous (and infamous) people who were literally legends of the mmo industry. There were certainly some of the most petty, egotistical people I had ever met in that company, but there were also some of the coolest, most professional, down to earth and genuinely good people I have ever known there as well. And even though people sometimes lost sight of it, the work itself was a blast. It's the one job I've had I actually looked forward to going to. The freedom, creativity and sheer potential of "what might be" made it all worth it in my book.

And while I'm certainly far from some kind of expert now, I feel like I learned an incredible amount about how mmo's are made, how a game company is run, and just the industry as a whole, in the relatively short time I was there. I had a completely fresh perspective, coming in with zero previous knowledge and no personal grudges or preconceptions, and I think that's what enabled me to view the experience in such a broad scope. That, and the fact that I was ultimately a very small fish in a very big pond, and I made it my mission to involve myself in all aspects of the company, and to do a lot more listening and watching than talking.

I sacrificed a lot to pull up 28 years of roots at home and leave my friends and family behind and move 2500 miles away (not to mention leaving behind my girlfriend of 6 years at the time who had to stay behind to finish her last semester in school). Now that its over would I do it all over again? Hell yes. It was an adventure if nothing else. Not just the job, but the whole thing- moving to California, meeting new people, learning to surf~

And yeah, I guess I feel a little like Jack in the movie, when he got "lucky" and won tickets to the Titanic in a poker game. I rolled the dice and felt, honest to God, as stupid as it sounds, like the dream I had to work for a game company had finally come true. I came in full of enthusiasm with a ton of fresh ideas that I knew were good. Working there was as cool as I had imagined, maybe cooler. And despite the fact that it makes me sound like one of the egotistical douchebags I was just lambasting, after getting there I was positive that I had the talent to make it big in the industry. Unfortunately, I did so much watching and listening and waiting for the right time, that when the ship hit the iceberg and went down shortly after I got on, I hadn't put even a fraction of the ideas I had out on the table. To be honest, I don't think it would have much mattered anyway, the voyage was tragically doomed before I stepped aboard, but maybe if I had been more aggressive I would have made more of an impression on the guys that went to other companies, and in doing that opened doors in other places. Who knows?

Anyway, my point is that I'm damn glad I rolled the dice in the first place. While I wish it had turned out to be financially profitable, I gained a hell of a lot from the experience that can't be measured in dollar signs. So my advice to any fellow "industry outsiders" looking to break into the industry is this: If you think you have the balls and the talent- go for it. If it can happen to a random asshole like me, it can happen for you. Be prepared to be extremely persistent, and if you are lucky enough to get an offer, be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices for a very small amount of pay to make it happen. Go into it knowing that it is a kill or kill environment, and that people will fuck you over- repeatedly. Your chance of success is fairly minor, but it is there- especially if you have talent, timing and foresight- and the potential reward for success can be absolutely huge. And if you get in, don't be a wallflower, be assertive. Chances are, you won't have much time to make an impact, so work fast and use the time you've got.
 

DJk_zero_foh

shitlord
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For the TLR ;

The MMO / Game design scene is just like every other type of large development house or big corporation. Ego"s and attitudes are thrown around like sumo wrestlers, and if someone isn"t an asshole to you at one stage or another then they"re probably set to go off and kill everyone sometime soon.

It"s 1% glory and 99% failure, just at larger scales then many other careers run with.

For every Gariotte, McQuaid, etc there are thousands of flops (and you could argue the vets eventually turn into flops as well, so far)
 

Fammaden_foh

shitlord
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That"s actually not a bad little story, and pretty relevant to the thread. I"d guess he is talking about working for Sigil, but maybe not.

So do you still work in the industry after all that or did you decide not to go after it anymore? I didn"t quite get that part if you mentioned it.
 

gnomad_foh

shitlord
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0
Very interesting write up Arden. It reenforces most of what I have always thought about the egotistical asses and petty BS. I would second the vote as to Sigil BTW

I guess that is the difference between a game company and a professional fortune 100 company staffed by professional engineers and former military.

What you described is nothing like I deal with on a daily basis and I sure as hell am glad I don"t. It does sound like you had an interesting experience and it was probably well worth the adventure.

Like the old Navy ad "It"s not just a job, it"s an adventure". Sounds like it describes what you went through. BTW have made that drive from Va to Ca and back several times and it sucks.
 

Gecko_foh

shitlord
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0
Nice write up, Arden. Definitely very relevant to the discussion here. I"ve done the exact reverse drive when I went from Cali to Maryland in similar situations a while ago.

I guess that is the difference between a game company and a professional fortune 100 company staffed by professional engineers and former military.

What you described is nothing like I deal with on a daily basis and I sure as hell am glad I don"t. It does sound like you had an interesting experience and it was probably well worth the adventure.
Ditto here.

The problem is even the best games companies are in flux and can go from prince to pauper overnight. None of them seem to be managed well, overtly professional, or have a plethora of management not bipolar due to deadlines, drugs, feature creep, or their wives boinking their lead artists...No thanks.
 

splok_foh

shitlord
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Everyone knows the game industry has its issues, but that"s hardly a fair comparison. A Fortune 100 company is one of the very best out of the millions of companies in the US, and you compare that to a failed game company? You would do good to get a list of a few hundred game companies in total, so the success ratio is way out of whack there. At least use the top few game companies to compare. Though from what I"ve seen of "normal" companies, the game industry might not be as far behind on average as some people think.
 
Arden"s writeup is a good read, but it"s one case out of many. As with many situations, you tend to hear more of the bad stories than the good ones, and it should be said that the games business has a lot of good things about it.

My personal experiences in the games industry have been extremely positive. No doubt you can find plenty of bitter former SOE employees who will say nasty things about the company, but I wouldn"t be one of them. I was on a great team working on a game I loved and made lifelong friends there. Granted, like any big company there are inefficient bureaucracies and a few people who don"t deserve to have hung around for as long as they have, but by and large SOE is made up of good people who want to make great games.

It"s hard for me to talk about 38 Studios without it coming off like a marketing pitch, but Curt has some beliefs about team and family that made the founding of this company very unique and different. He wants it to be the best place to work on the planet--not just the best game company to work for, but the best anywhere. It"s a pretty simple arrangement: we give him our best work and dedication and in return he will do anything and everything for us and our families. That"s not lip service; he has done things above and beyond the call of duty on many occasions. He"s put together a leadership group and set of benefits that puts employees first, because he knows that if your family life isn"t happy then there"s no way you can give your best at the office.

Like I said, I know I"ve been extremely fortunate and there are plenty of other people who"ve had miserable experiences working in the industry. There is a truth to keep in mind: just because someone with previous success rounds up a pile of money and says they"re going to make the next big thing doesn"t mean those folks have what it takes to provide leadership and smart business sense. What you can end up with is some egotistical jackass who looks after his own interests and fritters away that pile of cash as his employees are set adrift in a rudderless project with nobody empowered to make a difference.

To Curt"s credit, he has known from day one about the kind of environment that breeds world champions. He is also honest about realizing what he knows and what he doesn"t, so he put together a leadership team that compliments his strengths and shares the same goals and vision. We have bumps in the road like any company, but we overcome them as a team.

It is my hope that as our industry matures, you hear more stories like this and fewer of the bad experiences that grab so many headlines.

* * *

tl;dr - There are just as many positive stories from this industry as negative ones, so if working in games is your dream then by all means pursue it. Just go into it with your eyes open and do your homework first.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
Moorgard Mobhunter said:
tl;dr - There are just as many positive stories from this industry as negative ones, so if working in games is your dream then by all means pursue it. Just go into it with your eyes open and do your homework first.
Depends on your position too. The guy that comes right out of college that thinks he"s going to be able to use all he"s learned to do anything but design yet another game about poo-flinging monkeys because that"s what marketing says sells is going to be in for a shock.

Honestly, I"m reminded of an interview with Tigole. In it he said something along the lines of how he was able to get over the soul-crushing requirements of WoW at crunch time because he constantly reminded himself that he got to work with orcs and dragons and shit all day.

Game companies bank on people rationalizing the shit they put up with like that.

I did my homework and I didn"t like the prospects. I interviewed with one company briefly and when I asked, "So enough about how awesome I am, what will you offer me?" and then they fed me some line about how I"d get to work with an awesome team on projects I can be passionate about. Why waste my skills programming boring old code when I could be coding a railgun!

It reminded me of the line I was fed by a construction company I worked for when I was 19. "Why work in a stuffy office building when you can be outside!"

I read between the lines and it stunk all over again of "Do more for less!"

The current company I work for gave me the line I wanted to hear and have held true to it. "You"ll make a shitload of cash, and if you"re good at what you do, a bigger shitload of cash."

And now I work with a tight knit group of people. We hang out after work, we play games together at work (the day systems security finds out about the quake server I"m running at my desk is going to be a sad, sad day). Granted it"s hard to be passionate about creating a telecom workflow system but let"s be honest, database programming is the same. You just name your fields differently. "orc_hitpoints" becomes "phone_extension".

The only downside is the dress code. I fucking hate wearing khaki"s. But I"m rebelling. How often do you honestly look at a man"s shoes? Take that no sneakers policy!

Anyways...

Granted, the malcontent are much more likely to bitch then the happy are to brag. Thus is the nature of the internet hate machine. But in the end, so long as gullible college kids are willing to forgo paychecks for 2 weeks and put in 60 hour weeks so I can have Mass Effect 2, keep on being exploited kids!
 

Venjenz_foh

shitlord
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Zehn - Vhex said:
Granted it"s hard to be passionate about creating a telecom workflow system but let"s be honest, database programming is the same. You just name your fields differently. "Orc_hitpoints" becomes "phone_extension".
All the programming is the same, minus artwork, which to me seems like 80% of the people involved in making a game, since the last decade has pushed the "form before function" model to the limit.
 

Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,731
2,055
Whoa, let me qualify here. I didn"t write that to discourage anyone from pursuing a career in the mmo gaming field. I didn"t write that with any purpose in mind, really- other than to simply communicate my experience as someone who was an "industry outsider" who got hired onto a big mmo project despite the odds.

I wasn"t trying to be coy either, of course I"m talking about Sigil. When I said I wouldn"t go into detail I meant I wanted to stay away from calling out individuals by name.

Let me reiterate: my overall experience was a positive one. I"m glad I did it, and I would do it again (there"s your summary Teljair). I"m not bitter in the least about the company or the people involved. They actually treated me very well. Most of the negative experiences I witnessed involved other people getting screwed over, not me. If I was "bitter" about anything it would be the bad luck that I got my dream shot on one of the ships that went down (epically). But I"m not really bitter about that either, it was way beyond my control, and if I had been more aggressive I probably could have used my experience there as a segue to future jobs in the industry- but I didn"t, to answer your question Fammaden.

But I certainly would caution anyone who wanted to quit their job, sell their house, pack up a family and join an mmo company that it is a much more volatile industry than most. It's an industry where people are often (not always) promoted less due to achievement and more due to personal associations, and job security is pretty much nonexistent. Yes, obviously these are all things that someone in virtually any industry will have to contend with, but read:these things are much more of an issue in mmo industry than other industries.

If you're cool with the risks and the dangers, and just as importantly if you are in a position in your life where you can afford to roll the dice, go for it. Definitely. Like I said before, the converse of the risk is that it is a field where you have amazing potential to make bank. More importantly, (and this is why I wanted to get into the field) it is a position where you can create something amazing- and share it with the entire world.