House of the Dragon
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Guest, did you like the last podcast notification?? Well here's the second one, and for the third podcast! Yep. This Thursday 8-8-24 at 7pm Central
Go here to check out his podcast thread for info on topics and links!Go into the FoH discord and find the Happy Time Fun Hour channel and give it a listen!
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Kiroy
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Chris
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BrutulTM
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I don't know what your beef is with the Battle of the Bastards but there was a real battle that was very similar, minus the other army showing up at the last second to save the day, when Hannibal destroyed the Roman army at Cannae The shit with them being compressed until they couldn't breathe really happened. There was a great Hardcore History episode about it.
Burns
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I haven't watched it since before season 7 aired, so the main thing I still remember is: The Boltons were allied with the Frey, held Moet Caylen themselves, and other various houses of the North, were at a minimum, working with him. There was no way an Army of 10,000+ moved 100s of miles by "foot," from the Eyrie to his rear without Ramsey knowing about it.
Moving that many men and horse by ship would have been even more difficult, even if they somehow found a magic fleet of ships, and they would have still had a long march through enemy lands to get to Winterfell.
Ramsey sallying forth to line up against Jon was idiotic that any simpleton noble would have known not to do, especially since "Winter was coming," which should have meant Winterfell was well supplied and "impenetrable" (if he knew about the Eyrie army and somehow didn't care).
The two things about the battle, in particular:
- How would heavy infantry surround light infantry w/o the help of flanking cavalry? They would have been able to retreat away from the spearmen, easily, if they didn't just stand there like idiots. At a minimum, Jon and Devos should have known this. I'm sure they had various other nobles/knights all trained in war too (being that it's the main job of the nobility).
- How would a giant the size/weight of an elephant be contained? At a minimum, he should be able to just start grabbing spears and murdering people or making a hole with his new long toothpick, it's not like the shield wall has the maneuverability to evade him grabbing them. Also, a 20ft wall of bodies seems a bit silly.
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the biggest problem with the battle of the bastards, besides all of the above, is Jon was a retarded battle commander, got his entire army killed and he should have died.
For a series not afraid of killing off characters when then deserve it to all of a sudden Jon has magical plot armor is gay as fuck. this repeats itself throughout the rest of the battle sequences in GoT from that battle on, from Jaime not dying in the loot train attack to *all* of the characters not dying in the long night fight at Winterfell.
once they were past the books, around late season 5/season 6, they had no idea how to write dialogue or tell compelling stories, so instead they decided to subvert expectations by making everything gay instead of realistic.
Hardhome was the last real epic moment in the series.
For a series not afraid of killing off characters when then deserve it to all of a sudden Jon has magical plot armor is gay as fuck. this repeats itself throughout the rest of the battle sequences in GoT from that battle on, from Jaime not dying in the loot train attack to *all* of the characters not dying in the long night fight at Winterfell.
once they were past the books, around late season 5/season 6, they had no idea how to write dialogue or tell compelling stories, so instead they decided to subvert expectations by making everything gay instead of realistic.
Hardhome was the last real epic moment in the series.
Chris
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I think we can assume that the books will explain this better.
One of the ship having factions taking The Vale army from Gull Town to White Harbour and riding from there makes sense.
Greyjoys are going to Dany (confirmed in the show) via destroying the Redwyne fleet and Volantis to Aegon/Martells (neither in the show).
That leaves the Velaryon bastard that Cersei gave her new fleet to and apparently went off to be a pirate king, it's plausible he was in Littlefinger's pocket.
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Burns
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GRRM released a Winds chapter for Reek, a long time ago now. Some of it might be changed, but yea, just that chapter has a much better story being set up with Stannis. My memory is fuzzy, but I think White Harbor and the Manderlys were involved, even before the Winds chapters I read.
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slow down there with those bad takes Chris, there's absolutely no indication that a battle of the bastards would take place at all in the books, and certainly not the way the show portrays it.
have you even read the books? Oh what a silly question, of course you haven't, given all your past comments and delusions.
First of all, in the books, why would the Vale army be marching north? 0 connection there
Second of all, the Iron Fleet is in Mereen yes with Victarion, but that's it. Euron doesn't magically shit out a thousand more ships (and the people to sail them) like the retarded shit that happened in the show. Euron is doing minor raids with a handful of ships attacking the shield isles and raiding up the Mander river (no where close to the Arbor/Redwynes), this is merely a distraction to force the redwyne fleet to return back to defend the Reach, allowing the Ironborn fleet to land Dany and her armies in Westeros unopposed.
The Reach's Fleet ie Redwyne fleet is sieging Dragonstone to rid them of Stannis loyalists, Stannis and his army are still stuck in the snow in the north. Cersei refuses to allow the redwyne fleet to let up on the siege and go back to defend the reach, Loras volunteers to personally lead the siege of the castle to hasten it's fall. Aurane Waters (The bastard cersei gave the royal fleet to) carries Loras and his troops to dragonstone, but then he fucks off with the royal fleet to go be a pirate prince in the stepstones.
Allegedly loras is dying after taking dragonstone but there are theories that this was a ruse so that the redwyne fleet can rush back and defend the Reach.
The Volantis fleet is carrying the golden company and Aegon to westeros to invade the stormlands. The Martell boy is long since dead/irrelevant.
There are no ships anywhere on the eastern coast of Westeros to carry any troops to the north. I mean they could go 5 or 10 at a time on fishing boats and shit but since it's deep in to winter the narrow sea especially the northern part is basically raging chaos with 50 foot waves and unending storms and nearly unsailable.
have you even read the books? Oh what a silly question, of course you haven't, given all your past comments and delusions.
First of all, in the books, why would the Vale army be marching north? 0 connection there
Second of all, the Iron Fleet is in Mereen yes with Victarion, but that's it. Euron doesn't magically shit out a thousand more ships (and the people to sail them) like the retarded shit that happened in the show. Euron is doing minor raids with a handful of ships attacking the shield isles and raiding up the Mander river (no where close to the Arbor/Redwynes), this is merely a distraction to force the redwyne fleet to return back to defend the Reach, allowing the Ironborn fleet to land Dany and her armies in Westeros unopposed.
The Reach's Fleet ie Redwyne fleet is sieging Dragonstone to rid them of Stannis loyalists, Stannis and his army are still stuck in the snow in the north. Cersei refuses to allow the redwyne fleet to let up on the siege and go back to defend the reach, Loras volunteers to personally lead the siege of the castle to hasten it's fall. Aurane Waters (The bastard cersei gave the royal fleet to) carries Loras and his troops to dragonstone, but then he fucks off with the royal fleet to go be a pirate prince in the stepstones.
Allegedly loras is dying after taking dragonstone but there are theories that this was a ruse so that the redwyne fleet can rush back and defend the Reach.
The Volantis fleet is carrying the golden company and Aegon to westeros to invade the stormlands. The Martell boy is long since dead/irrelevant.
There are no ships anywhere on the eastern coast of Westeros to carry any troops to the north. I mean they could go 5 or 10 at a time on fishing boats and shit but since it's deep in to winter the narrow sea especially the northern part is basically raging chaos with 50 foot waves and unending storms and nearly unsailable.
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Chris
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I have read the books and sample chapters, forgot the Redwynes and Loras were at Dragonstone. Minor detail whatever. Other than that what did I get wrong?
By "Martells" I meant the sister (Arianne?) who is promised to Aegon, she's a main character so you don't have a perfect memory yourself.
Vale is connected to The North via Littlefinger/Sansa same as the show. Plot is going in the direction of Sansa marrying Robin Arryn's distant cousin who will inherit if Robin dies. Why is Sansa even important to marry off if she isn't a claim to The North?
Explaining Aurane Waters in more detail than I did doesn't debunk what I said about him or show my ignorance, I just wanted to keep the post length down and avoid googling if he allegedly went to stepstones or somewhere else.
Most of your post was just more detail without debunking. Fuck off.
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lets see, you claim you read the books, lets see how many points you got correct:
-1 forgot the entire reach fleet was in the gullet sieging Stannis' men on dragonstone, and not fighting the ironborn
-1 Thought the iron fleet was attacking the reach
0.. +1 because you remembered that the entire iron fleet was half a world away in Slavers bay, but then -1 for thinking that Euron had magically assembled a brand new fleet like that bullshit on the TV show so that he had something to destroy the redwyne fleet with.
-2 so far, but your entire premise is wrong. There is no fleet available to take anyone north to White Harbor, not that there is anyone to take north, the Vale has nothing to do with the current battles in the north.
Now, on to your next post.
-1 Arianne Martell was promised in secret to Viserys Targaryan, which is why her father never presented her a suitable suitor, so that she would reject every man he presented and she would remain unwed. Viserys died to Khal Drogo and with him, her marriage pact. Doran Martell attempts to salvage this marriage pact by sending his son Quentyn Martell to marry Dany instead, but arrives too late and since she is already married she refuses, he then attempts to steal a dragon so that he doesn't come home empty handed, and is burned to death for his troubles.
-1 Arianne is not promised to Aegon, nobody in Dorne knows who the fuck Aegon is or that he is invading Westeros. Doran and his army is awaiting word on dragons to land and is as surprised as everyone else when he keeps hearing rumors of elephants instead. It's only after the golden company lands and takes the stormlands that Doran is told that Aegon is the son of his sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryan, and Arianne is sent to find the truth of the matter. By the time she gets to the stormlands Aegon has already taken Storms End.
0.. +1 Yes Littlefinger plots to marry Sansha off to Harrold Hardyng aka Harry the Heir, but that hasn't happened yet he's just now laying the framework for that. but -1, That has nothing to do with the North now it'll be years before the Vale will be under their control enough to convince them to send their army to the north.
Unlike the show there are no magical teleporters, armies don't just magically appear places because it would subvert expectations, and most importantly, Jon Snow is fucking dead right now.
Assuming that Stannis loses the battle of Winterfell and that Ramsay is still alive (which is a big assumption considering), you still have the bolton army snowed in in winterfell and a very dead Jon Snow. it'll be years before the Vale could solidify under Littlefinger/Sansha's rule especially considering how hated/mistrusted he is and that it would require the mysterious death of their lord right after the mysterious death of his mother.
the Lannister forces are wiped out, Cersei will be dead and Westeros will be half conquered by Aegon and then fully conquered by Dany, with Aegon and Dany will be fighting over throne long before the vale could march north or a "battle of the bastards" could happen.
So all and all, -4 out of 10 points. I'm sure you read the idiots guide to westeros or maybe the HBO inserts in the DVD box set.
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BrutulTM
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Chris
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I read the books in 2012 and I'm not cross referencing a wiki for idle speculation because I'm a normal person.
Me: "Kings Landing fleet could be with Littlefinger, the Velaryon bastard Cersei appointed is claimed to have gone to be a pirate king but maybe not"
You: "Bad take Chris, his name is AURANE WATERS how did you not know that and ackchully he's going to the STEPSTONES to be a pirate lord. Don't you know anything!? Here's seven paragraphs about how the other fleets you said are accounted for, are accounted for in more detail in a very slightly different way so you are WRONG."
It's unhinged.
Like there's a two paragraph rant about Arianne Martell because I used a single word "promised" speculating that the marriage pact will be fulfilled by Aegon not Viserys. I'm just indicating that these characters are in a storyline together and not relevent for the Vale Knights teleportation discussion.
Please correct me if I'm not accurate but it could be "Arianne was meant to marry Viserys not Aegon, but yeah looks like them getting together is a possibly since she is travelling to him" instead of an angry flaming rant.
I almost speculated that Iron Bank could be with Littlefinger and buys some ships, what would you post about that lol?
Burns
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Similar boat. I read the books, starting with the second one, after watching the first or second season of GOT.
A large amount of it now blends together with the show and I only remember some of the cut content, such as characters like Stoneheart and Jane Pool or the whole Dorne plot (which I liked in the book but was trash in the show (although, much of that might have been a Winds chapter)).
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No chris, you completely confused the characters. You mistakenly believed that Arianne and Aegon were promised when that was never the case. First of all they are first cousins (and she isn't a targaryan) but more importantly Aegon is doing all of this to wed his aunt Danaerys, you remember? The one with the 3 fucking dragons and an actual chance of claiming the throne?
Edit: also you keep harping on "the royal fleet" which is literally 3 fucking cogs. Even if aurane was somehow in littlefingers employ he doesn't have a fleet to carry troops, not that littlefinger/sansa even have troops at this point, because again, the show and the book are completely fucking different. Again the lannisters/crown are completely spent at this point in the books, they don't have unlimited henchmen or money like they do in the show.
Aegon and Arianne Is not a simple mistake or subtle distinction or even some deep dive youtuber fan theory. You completely misremembered Aegon for Viserys, while in the same breath accusing me of forgetting a main character. all to dig yourself out of a hole you made by claiming that some shit that happened in the TV show will probably happen in the books, despite there being 0% chance of that happening.
You. were. wrong. about. every. single. point. you. made. Just admit it. You haven't read the books in over a decade? yeah, no shit, that's fucking obvious. You forgot major plot points, you misremembered others, you transposed tv events over to book ones. You don't remember half the fucking story? that's fine man, just say so, you haven't read the books in forever and you don't know what you are talking about. Simple caveat, nobody will fault you for it if you just say you were wrong.
Suffice to say tho, that does make you the least qualified AND THE LAST motherfucker to come into this thread and dismiss changes the show is making to the books as "minor" or "irrelevant" since you can't even remember what the fuck happened in the books. If you just said "hey I dont think the show is that bad, ok well yeah its pretty bad, but what do I know I barely skimmed the book it was based on and don't remember much of it" then nobody would give a shit. You would have your opinion, which would be wrong, but nobody would care. Instead you come in here as the most disingenuous faggot on these forums making these bullshit proclamations about how the changes are minor and don't matter because the book isn't even a book anyway hurrdurr like you are some authority when you clearly are the last fucking thing to an authority on the books
For everyone not Chris, Look, I get it. Truth is, sometime around season 3 we all saw the show was going great and it had been 5 years since the fatman released book 5, and with the success of the show, the likelihood of book 6 ever releasing got less and less. At some point, everyone of us decided "fuck it, the book is never coming out, the show is now cannon" and we all did the mental gymnastics to tie in the show events as what really happened and the book was just backup supporting material.
We all saw the dump trucks of money. The more successful the show was the less likely winds of winter was ever going to be written. We accepted this, when the show was great. Then the show was just good. then the show became "wtf?" and then it became a fucking dumpster fire. It went from the #1 rated show in history to the most hated show in history practically overnight.
None of this really mattered to George tho, he already got paid and he thought he'd be swimming in spin-off money til his non-existent grand kids retired but it turns out Television is fucking worthless, and streaming is a bottomless money pit and to avert bankruptcy WB is going to have to make some tough decisions. Maybe these shows limp across the finish line or maybe they get cancelled.
You can tell from his recent interviews that the issue of Legacy is starting to eat at him in his old age. He talks about visiting Tolkien's grave and wondering if in 50 years he'll be considered in the same league? and the realization is that no, he won't, since he never completed his magnum opus. He got to around the battle of Helms deep in his version of LOTR and stopped to work on his version of the hobbit (Dunk & Egg) and his version of The Silmarillion (World of Ice and Fire, Fire and Blood, etc compendiums) but unless he finishes his LOTR he'll never even be up for consideration. And now he talks about his true legacy is to finish the books instead of arguing with show runners about how fucking awful they are for not remaining faithful to his work.
Do I think he'll finish the series? fuck no. Winds of Winter, A Dream of Spring and a Time for Wolves? no chance in hell. But I do believe the shows shitting all over his work and the ending GoT gave us bothers him enough that the chances of us seeing Winds of Winter has improved from 0% to 20-25%. I also believe firmly that his post mortem wishes have also changed.
During GoTs hey day he was adamant that all his notes are to be burned upon his death so that no one will finish his work. I think age has softened this stance, and i'm pretty sure his will to his widow is now "when the spin off money dries up, call Brandon Sanderson, give him Elios number and here's the password to my computer files"
So yeah, i've taken the time to reread some, to deconstruct the show events from the book events to familiarize myself with what really happened in the books because i'm hopeful that we might see Winds of Winter and the books will be cannon again.
And the truth is, half the shit that happened on the show from seasons 1-4 didn't happen at all, or didn't happen that way, and anything after about midway through season 5 is completely up for debate. They changed so many things, cut so much shit, combined so much shit that none of it can happen the way it happens in the show, if it was ever going to happen at all. There were only 2 events after season5 that we know GRRM told them about, one was confirmed in an Arya chapter from winds (the deaths of Polivar et al), and the other was How Hodor got his name, if not the specifics, the general premise of how that came to be.
Everything else that happened in the show after the first half of season 5 is 100% fanfic and you shouldn't just assume it will happen that way or at all, in the book.
Edit: also you keep harping on "the royal fleet" which is literally 3 fucking cogs. Even if aurane was somehow in littlefingers employ he doesn't have a fleet to carry troops, not that littlefinger/sansa even have troops at this point, because again, the show and the book are completely fucking different. Again the lannisters/crown are completely spent at this point in the books, they don't have unlimited henchmen or money like they do in the show.
Aegon and Arianne Is not a simple mistake or subtle distinction or even some deep dive youtuber fan theory. You completely misremembered Aegon for Viserys, while in the same breath accusing me of forgetting a main character. all to dig yourself out of a hole you made by claiming that some shit that happened in the TV show will probably happen in the books, despite there being 0% chance of that happening.
You. were. wrong. about. every. single. point. you. made. Just admit it. You haven't read the books in over a decade? yeah, no shit, that's fucking obvious. You forgot major plot points, you misremembered others, you transposed tv events over to book ones. You don't remember half the fucking story? that's fine man, just say so, you haven't read the books in forever and you don't know what you are talking about. Simple caveat, nobody will fault you for it if you just say you were wrong.
Suffice to say tho, that does make you the least qualified AND THE LAST motherfucker to come into this thread and dismiss changes the show is making to the books as "minor" or "irrelevant" since you can't even remember what the fuck happened in the books. If you just said "hey I dont think the show is that bad, ok well yeah its pretty bad, but what do I know I barely skimmed the book it was based on and don't remember much of it" then nobody would give a shit. You would have your opinion, which would be wrong, but nobody would care. Instead you come in here as the most disingenuous faggot on these forums making these bullshit proclamations about how the changes are minor and don't matter because the book isn't even a book anyway hurrdurr like you are some authority when you clearly are the last fucking thing to an authority on the books
For everyone not Chris, Look, I get it. Truth is, sometime around season 3 we all saw the show was going great and it had been 5 years since the fatman released book 5, and with the success of the show, the likelihood of book 6 ever releasing got less and less. At some point, everyone of us decided "fuck it, the book is never coming out, the show is now cannon" and we all did the mental gymnastics to tie in the show events as what really happened and the book was just backup supporting material.
We all saw the dump trucks of money. The more successful the show was the less likely winds of winter was ever going to be written. We accepted this, when the show was great. Then the show was just good. then the show became "wtf?" and then it became a fucking dumpster fire. It went from the #1 rated show in history to the most hated show in history practically overnight.
None of this really mattered to George tho, he already got paid and he thought he'd be swimming in spin-off money til his non-existent grand kids retired but it turns out Television is fucking worthless, and streaming is a bottomless money pit and to avert bankruptcy WB is going to have to make some tough decisions. Maybe these shows limp across the finish line or maybe they get cancelled.
You can tell from his recent interviews that the issue of Legacy is starting to eat at him in his old age. He talks about visiting Tolkien's grave and wondering if in 50 years he'll be considered in the same league? and the realization is that no, he won't, since he never completed his magnum opus. He got to around the battle of Helms deep in his version of LOTR and stopped to work on his version of the hobbit (Dunk & Egg) and his version of The Silmarillion (World of Ice and Fire, Fire and Blood, etc compendiums) but unless he finishes his LOTR he'll never even be up for consideration. And now he talks about his true legacy is to finish the books instead of arguing with show runners about how fucking awful they are for not remaining faithful to his work.
Do I think he'll finish the series? fuck no. Winds of Winter, A Dream of Spring and a Time for Wolves? no chance in hell. But I do believe the shows shitting all over his work and the ending GoT gave us bothers him enough that the chances of us seeing Winds of Winter has improved from 0% to 20-25%. I also believe firmly that his post mortem wishes have also changed.
During GoTs hey day he was adamant that all his notes are to be burned upon his death so that no one will finish his work. I think age has softened this stance, and i'm pretty sure his will to his widow is now "when the spin off money dries up, call Brandon Sanderson, give him Elios number and here's the password to my computer files"
So yeah, i've taken the time to reread some, to deconstruct the show events from the book events to familiarize myself with what really happened in the books because i'm hopeful that we might see Winds of Winter and the books will be cannon again.
And the truth is, half the shit that happened on the show from seasons 1-4 didn't happen at all, or didn't happen that way, and anything after about midway through season 5 is completely up for debate. They changed so many things, cut so much shit, combined so much shit that none of it can happen the way it happens in the show, if it was ever going to happen at all. There were only 2 events after season5 that we know GRRM told them about, one was confirmed in an Arya chapter from winds (the deaths of Polivar et al), and the other was How Hodor got his name, if not the specifics, the general premise of how that came to be.
Everything else that happened in the show after the first half of season 5 is 100% fanfic and you shouldn't just assume it will happen that way or at all, in the book.
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Here let me TLDR:
Sylas: turbo-autistic encyclopedic recall of the books, posts scene by scene line by line show to book changes and argues that the show is completely shitting on the book. Backed up by all evidence, media, the author and even the show runners themselves.
Chris: disingenuous faggot who admits he hasn't read the books in over a decade, barely skimmed the book hotd is based on, and doesn't even consider it a book. Argues the show is a faithful adaptation of the book and if it isn't, it doesn't really matter hurrdurr.
You decide who's right.
Sylas: turbo-autistic encyclopedic recall of the books, posts scene by scene line by line show to book changes and argues that the show is completely shitting on the book. Backed up by all evidence, media, the author and even the show runners themselves.
Chris: disingenuous faggot who admits he hasn't read the books in over a decade, barely skimmed the book hotd is based on, and doesn't even consider it a book. Argues the show is a faithful adaptation of the book and if it isn't, it doesn't really matter hurrdurr.
You decide who's right.
Bald Brah
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