Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? *sigh*

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
It honestly is strange talking to a Baptist and having him tell you that Catholics are Idolaters. I mean it's just WEIRD. "All that stained glass and those fancy crucifixes and their fancy altar!" And I'm just standing there like... huh? And it's not even all that hateful, it's like they're reciting a creed.

Some of 'em. They sure don't like the Pope.
 

Royal

Connoisseur of Exotic Pictures
15,077
10,641
I heard worse than idolatry growing up, like the Catholic Church being represented in the Revelation imagery and not in a flattering way; the Pope as anti-christ and all that.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
<Silver Donator>
31,672
18,377
Yeah the Pope is like the Whore of Babylon and shit to some Evangelical Protestants.
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Trapped in Randomonia>
41,454
177,728
Actually, many Evangelical Protestants are getting on the "we all worship the same God" band wagon, and including Roman Catholics in there. Some even include Muslims and Jews in that. It's groups like Southern Baptists that promote the hateful, separation language.
 

Royal

Connoisseur of Exotic Pictures
15,077
10,641
Yeah the Pope is like the Whore of Babylon and shit to some Evangelical Protestants.
The version of it I heard, if I remember it correctly now it's been a hell of a long time, was that the Pope/Catholic Church was the second beast to make the scene that was given authority from the first (the dragon with however many heads and horns). Basically it signified the new Roman Empire, with it's spiritual rather than temporal authority. I always thought that notion conveniently ignored just how much temporal authority the early Catholic Church actually had.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
<Silver Donator>
31,672
18,377
There's definitely a non denominational push now. I think its because they're starting to realize that there's strength in unity, and their belief systems are crumbling around them.

Southern Baptists definitely aren't one of those groups for the most part, you're right about that. In fact the Southern Baptists have seen record declines in new membership and people being baptized into the faith the past two decades, and good. Having been raised in that religion, I hope they become as irrelevant as the fucking Waco offshoot of the Latter Day Saints.

The version of it I heard, if I remember it correctly now it's been a hell of a long time, was that the Pope/Catholic Church was the second beast to make the scene that was given authority from the first (the dragon with however many heads and horns). Basically it signified the new Roman Empire, with it's spiritual rather than temporal authority. I always thought that notion conveniently ignored just how much temporal authority the early Catholic Church actually had.
Yeah something like that. Its because the Papal seat is formed from the old Roman religious authority (historically said to have been set up by the 2nd Roman King, Numa Pompilius).

Numa Pompilius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
2,122
3
The Catholic Church was marginalized in the South (Louisiana being something of an exception) for a long time. Not to the same extent as some other groups, but people do tend to forget that one of the old pillars of the KKK was being anti-papist. That and immigration trends gave it firmer roots in the Northeast.

Every region has it's negatives, but the South is fucked up in a special way.
Catholics are still demonized a bit down there. When I lived in Savannah it was fairly uncomfortable if people found out I was a practicing Catholic. Most of them didn't even consider me a Christian. In fact when people were referring to someone's faith they would refer to most protestants as Christians, whereas they would specifically use the terms Catholic and Mormon when referring to anyone from those faiths. It was pretty amusing.

You are also right about the story origins in regards to the papacy being a part of the anti Christ ideals. Papal history has always been an interesting area to study.
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Trapped in Randomonia>
41,454
177,728
I've known some Southern Baptists that think all the Presbyterians are going to hell.
This is the shit I'm talking about. My mother in law, who, in general, is a good person, doesn't think Roman Catholics are Christians. Some Southern Baptists don't think Presbyterians are Christians. Many Roman Catholics think that all other people who profess to be Christian, but are not Catholic, will not go to heaven because of the role the sacraments play, and non-Catholics are not welcome to take Eucharist at a Catholic Mass. Not because of Transubstantiation, but because non Catholics do not believe in the headship of the Pope, and cannot, therefore, accept the Eucharist in that way.

This is all bullshit when you get right down to the nitty gritty of it all, and all these various sects and denominations believe that Christ is the path to salvation.

Seems like there are better things to be fighting about than what denomination you are. About as smart as saying something like "Only Ford drivers will go to heaven. I don't care if you all drive cars, it's just that kind of car, and your acceptance of it, that will save you." Batshit crazy. How about we all practice tolerance and acceptance.

thankyouthatwouldbefine
 
2,122
3
Things might slowly go in that direction. Recently the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have started rebuilding their ties with each other. Personally I feel its a good thing since both churches are so close in doctrine. The major difference being that catholics are more in to the philosophical approach while the orthodox are much more about the mysticism. Reading maximus the confessor or the works of the desert fathers is a nice contrast to things like Aquinas.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,595
34,114
Or maybe dismantled dogmatic organized religion because it's nothing but a cess pool for breeding bad ideas at this point. We got TV to cover the basics for childhood development now.
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Trapped in Randomonia>
41,454
177,728
Or maybe dismantled dogmatic organized religion because it's nothing but a cess pool for breeding bad ideas at this point. We got TV to cover the basics for childhood development now.
Actually, there are some pretty amazing things coming out of organised religion these days. But whatever makes you feel better.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
<Silver Donator>
31,672
18,377
Without me being a dick about it, and naming some of the craziness I perceive organized religion engaging in, would you be up for naming some of these amazing things you feel are coming out of organized religion these days?
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Trapped in Randomonia>
41,454
177,728
Sure, fair question.

There are quite a few organisations that have developed through particular denominations or religious organisations that bring relief to areas that suffer in some way. Look, for example, an an organisation like "World Renew," which helps in areas that have been devastated by natural disasters. And not for a while, while it is still in the public eye. They stay for decades in places like Indonesia, who suffered the tsunami in 2006. The world has forgotten, but this organisation is still there, building, giving medication, helping that part of the world keep going. And, because of the religious community from which this movement grows, there is a lot of volunteer administration, so something like 96% of funds actually get to the affected areas, rather than the lower percentage by other organisations.

I know someone who works with a Roman Catholic group that goes to rural areas in Africa to administer end of life care to those suffering with AIDS, because no one else will.

And, more locally, I can think of at least a dozen groups that work in different cities in the United States that work within communities at a small level - after school programs, community gardens, breakfast programs, and the like.

Are those things happening exclusively in the domain of religious organisiations? No. However, these particular things are happening because those who believe feel it necessary - and here is an important part of it - not to get people to come to church on Sunday morning. It's important to do because they believe they are called to. The era where the church separates itself from the world is coming to a close. The era where the church is concerned with, and positively tries to impact the world, starting with their own local communities, is here. I see it all over the place, but perhaps that is merely because of the groups with whom I work.
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Trapped in Randomonia>
41,454
177,728
And to add to my above post - yes. Organised religion fucks things up. Badly. Often. So do corporations. So does any large group of any people trying to work together regardless of motive. Just look at how things can change, and hope for the best. But if the current Pope doesn't give you hope in any way, I don't know what would. Just one example.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
<Silver Donator>
31,672
18,377
Fair enough.

My rebuttal, because I think you have a fair point that there is more charity done in the name of various religions than not, and don't want to get all polemic about it, is that with or without religion, good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things. I think that a majority of the world's religious charities tend to be bloated, to spend a lot of their donations on the infrastructure and employees, and in the case of Christian religions, on proselytizing and purchasing and handing out Bibles, but certainly not all of them, and so I can see your point. This phenomena of wasting lots of donation dollars on infrastructure and employees isn't remotely exclusive to religious charities mind, and I'm certainly not saying it is, in fact I think this applies to most charitable organizations globally.

My overriding primary concern is that if that religious structure wasn't there, I do think those people involved in that stuff would still be involved with it. Its founded in their empathy and love of humanity, less than their love of necessarily existing sky men. To give credit to the religion, for the actions of its followers, is to give undue credit where it doesn't belong, in my personal opinion. That's one of the issues I have with the "God" concept. God always seems to get all of the credit, but none of the blame. If I donate to charity, I did that. God didn't do that. Yet I'll credit God with me giving that charitable donation. However, if I don't give that donation to charity, I don't blame God for that do I? Of course not. Then its all on my shoulders.

We see this phenomena everywhere. The alcoholic doesn't blame God for creating him with the propensity to drink too heavily. He doesn't credit God with his suffering, or causing him to lose his family and job as a result of his addiction. But he's sure to give God the credit when he goes to AA and gets clean. The way I see it, God had nothing to do with any of it. The alcoholic was an alcoholic because of a genetic predisposition, and cultural availability, and acceptance of drinking, and he stopped being an alcoholic because of his hard work, and negative cultural attitudes towards uncontrolled drinking. Another example is when someone has a heart attack or something, and goes to the hospital, and people who spent decades of their lives striving to get through medical school save their life. You don't see the patient blaming God for giving them the heart attack, and you won't see them thanking the medical staff very often either. Instead they'll be on television or telling their friends "I thank God for saving my life". From my point of view, God didn't have jack squat to do with them surviving that heart attack. Luck and talented doctors did. Its just sorta this double standard in religious thinking that denies credit where its due, and gives undue credit where it doesn't belong, that I've seen so often in my life that it really sticks out to me as sort of....an error in thinking in a way.

But I do understand where you're coming from, and not going to knock your opinion. I don't fully agree with it, but I see the point you're trying to make and do think it is a legitimate one, if debatable.
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Trapped in Randomonia>
41,454
177,728
I certainly see what you are saying, and I don't disagree, to be frank. So many terrible things are done in the name of religion, and that makes me sick, because if the people involved actually understood their own religion properly, things wouldn't be negative at all. Everyone is imperfect...put them together, and make them work at the pace of a committee: the perfect recipe for crappy things to happen. Add to that a lack of oversight for the people right at the top of the administrative heap (priests, ministers, etc.), and you get the worst of people.

I think one thing to remember is that the negative that comes from organised religion comes very much from the troubling nature of people, not from the religion itself.
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Trapped in Randomonia>
41,454
177,728
Oh, and I can't agree with you more about the not blaming God for bad things, but finding God when the good things show up. I recently encountered a woman who couldn't see, and I asked her if she was seeing an eye doctor, and she replied, "I'm waiting for God to heal my eyes." I told her she was stupid, and that God had put doctors and medical science in her life, and she was denying that ability to heal her. She called me a heathen. I called her an idiot. I was correct in this instance.