Justice for Zimmerman

khalid · Jul 4, 2013

Tanoomba_sl said:
Zimmerman himself did not consider this beating life-threatening, or he would have acted on it and used his gun to defend himself.
When Martin saw the gun and made a direct threat to his life, then Zimmerman realized his life actually was in danger. They then struggled over the gun, Zimmerman managed to get it and shoot Martin.

Sorry but that is your own assumptions. Zimmerman might very well have felt his life was being threatened but still didn't reach for his gun. To me and lots of other people, and hopefully to the jury, getting your head beat against concrete is enough to defend yourself with deadly force. However, Zimmerman for whatever reason didn't do it.

Only when TM went for the gun did Zimmerman respond with deadly force. If anything, this testimony further shows that Zimmerman was reluctant to use his gun. He waited long past when he could have used it legally. It cuts right against the idea that Zimmerman tried to set up some situation in order to kill someone.

Chukzombi · Jul 4, 2013

im more inclined to believe the physical evidence at a crime scene than the statements by the victim who was not in a clear frame of mind during the attack.
its like somebody who almost dies and was revived saying afterward they saw a light and they were outside of their own body. unless you are some kind of spiritualist, you know that shit was due to delirium.

Jais · Jul 4, 2013

Well if Martin was going for Zimmerman's gun (legally owned, carried and concealed) while it was in the holster then yeah this shit's dumb, play stupid games win stupid prizes, take one in the chest, bish bash bosh.

ZyyzYzzy · Jul 4, 2013

Zimmermam getting his bead bashed and Martin reach for his gun can both occur. Are you saying he couldn't have feared for his life and didnt react until the gun was reached for? You pretty much state you think everyone's assumptions makes them racist, but I'm sure your right and everyone disagreeing with you is wrong.

Drinsic · Jul 4, 2013

Martin bashes Zimmerman's head into the concrete, reaches for Zimmerman's gun, and gets shot? Good.

Martin bashes Zimmerman's head into the concrete and gets shot? Good.

Tanoomba · Jul 4, 2013

khalid_sl said:
Only when TM went for the gun did Zimmerman respond with deadly force. If anything, this testimony further shows that Zimmerman was reluctant to use his gun. He waited long past when he could have used it legally. It cuts right against the idea that Zimmerman tried to set up some situation in order to kill someone.

I can buy that. I actually don't think Zimmerman is the bad guy (at least, not anymore). I think he had no intention of killing anyone and likely feels genuine remorse that someone died. This is why I'm saying that if he had not been carrying a gun (in a position of authority where it is suggested one not carry a gun) the scuffle would likely not have ended in anyone's death. He was carrying the gun legally, of course, so maybe there's literally no way he should be charged with anything. But since it's an accidental death resulting from him carrying a gun in a situation where he shouldn't have been carrying one (even though it was legal), I can imagine how manslaughter might apply. I'm not a lawyer, maybe manslaughter doesn't work this way at all, I'm just suggesting that the fact that Zimmerman was carrying a gun may be more significant than the beating he was getting in terms of what led to him having to defend himself.

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:
Zimmermam getting his bead bashed and Martin reach for his gun can both occur. Are you saying he couldn't have feared for his life and didnt react until the gun was reached for? You pretty much state you think everyone's assumptions makes them racist, but I'm sure your right and everyone disagreeing with you is wrong.

I'm saying what Zimmerman said. Nothing more, nothing less.
And, like most things in life, this is not as simple as "right and wrong".

By the way, I'm curious: Did you actually read any of the last TM thread? I never said anyone's assumptions made them racist. Ever. I did, however, call out obviously racist behavior as being racist. Furthermore, the people I called out were so obvious nobody even bothered to deny that they were racist. They wore their racism proudly and upped the ante by seeing how far they could push their own racism, just to fuck with me.
IDIDsay that someone being a racist makes it hard to take their point of view seriously, and I stand by that. I never said "Oh, you think Zimmerman is innocent? Racist!" which is the impression you seem to be under.

Drinsic · Jul 4, 2013

Tanoomba_sl said:
This is why I'm saying that if he had not been carrying a gun (in a position of authority where it is suggested one not carry a gun) the scuffle would likely not have ended in anyone's death.

If Zimmerman had not been carrying a gun the scuffle likely would have ended in Zimmerman's death.

khalid · Jul 4, 2013

Tanoomba_sl said:
This is why I'm saying that if he had not been carrying a gun (in a position of authority where it is suggested one not carry a gun) the scuffle would likely not have ended in anyone's death.

The police in my neighborhood aren't happy about people that carry concealed guns. If one day while walking my dog, someone gets into a fight with me and tries to grab it and I shoot him, are you saying I should be guilty of manslaughter? Surely not.

Jais · Jul 4, 2013

It wasn't an accidental death. Zimmerman legally carried a firearm and legally employed it in defense of his life.

Tanoomba · Jul 4, 2013

Drinsic_sl said:
If Zimmerman had not been carrying a gun the scuffle likely would have ended in Zimmerman's death.

Based on what? Seems to me he would have gotten beaten up.

khalid_sl said:
The police in my neighborhood aren't happy about people that carry concealed guns. If one day while walking my dog, someone gets into a fight with me and tries to grab it and I shoot him, are you saying I should be guilty of manslaughter? Surely not.

Ah, but you're not in the neighborhood watch, where you actively seek out people who look like they're causing trouble. The likelihood of a confrontation occurring (and therefore of a gun going off) is much higher when you're literally looking for trouble.

iannis · Jul 4, 2013

Yeah, valid. But that's why the police aren't happy about concealed carry. The presence of a gun can escalate a beating into a killing -- and that's more paperwork.

I'm not implying people don't have a right to defend themselves but you have got to be able to see how it's problematic and quite possibly conducive to a self-reinforcing pattern of violence. And that's job security for lawyers.

khalid · Jul 4, 2013

Tanoomba_sl said:
Ah, but you're not in the neighborhood watch, where you actively seek out people who look like they're causing trouble. The likelihood of a confrontation occurring (and therefore of a gun going off) is much higher when you're literally looking for trouble.

Good call, you are right that the situations are different. However, as we have discussed already, simply following someone shouldn't lead to a confrontation. Also, while a NHWatch might be "literally looking for trouble" in the strictly literal sense, they aren't "looking to fight someone". They are trying to keep the neighborhood safe.

Also, in a situation where you might end up involved with bad people, shouldn't your need to carry a concealed weapon be increased? I am not sure if Trayvon would have ended up killing Zimmerman if he didn't have a gun, but it might have happened. It is at least within the realm of possibility that Zimmerman having a gun saved his life.

Drinsic · Jul 4, 2013

Tanoomba_sl said:
Based on what? Seems to me he would have gotten beaten up.

Martin would have continued bashing Zimmerman's head until he died. My hypothetical foresight is superior to yours.

Tanoomba · Jul 4, 2013

Jais_sl said:
It wasn't an accidental death. Zimmerman legally carried a firearm and legally employed it in defense of his life.

Sure, but Zimmerman didn't want to kill the guy. he was visibly distressed when told that Martin had died.
Yeah, when you shoot someone you gotta be ready for the possibility that they're gonna die, but it seems more like Zimmerman shot him because he simply had no other choice, it was either shoot or be shot at.
In fact, wasn't it mentioned in the previous thread that Zimmerman was carrying a gun because of a loose pit bull? I haven't heard mention of that since, but if it's true it could indicate that Zimmerman had no intention of relying on his gun in any confrontation with another person at all. That would certainly explain why he wouldn't draw it while approached by Martin, or while Martin was beating him up. This actually makes him more sympathetic in my book, but it again suggests that carrying the gun had more to do with the death than anything else that occurred.

Jais · Jul 4, 2013

By the same token if I'm actively being vigilant and concerned for the safety of my community, odds are I'm not going to be dealing with John Q Citizen and may require the capacity to defend myself.

zombiewizardhawk · Jul 4, 2013

Tanoomba_sl said:
This is why I'm saying that if he had not been carrying a gun the scuffle would likely not have ended in anyone's death. He was carrying the gun legally, of course.

If he wasn't carrying the gun maybe this scuffle wouldn't have ended in anyone dying. Maybe it would have. Maybe 3 weeks from now he'd be patrolling without his gun and run into a shithead who does have a gun and end up dead himself. If he was wearing a banana hammock and nothing else, maybe the scuffle would have turned in to the hottest selling gay porn video ever and they'd both be billionaires for the rest of their lives.

Edit:

How is a neighborhood watch "looking for trouble"? That's like saying you're "looking for trouble" if you keep an eye on your staff to make sure they aren't looting the safe.

Tanoomba · Jul 4, 2013

khalid_sl said:
Good call, you are right that the situations are different. However, as we have discussed already, simply following someone shouldn't lead to a confrontation. Also, while a NHWatch might be "literally looking for trouble" in the strictly literal sense, they aren't "looking to fight someone". They are trying to keep the neighborhood safe.

Also, in a situation where you might end up involved with bad people, shouldn't your need to carry a concealed weapon be increased? I am not sure if Trayvon would have ended up killing Zimmerman if he didn't have a gun, but it might have happened. It is at least within the realm of possibility that Zimmerman having a gun saved his life.

I actually do believe that Zimmerman was trying to make his neighborhood a safer place. I admit I jumped to conclusions at the beginning (I could blame the media, but really I should have been more critical from the beginning). Now that I've heard a lot more about what happened, Zimmerman has emerged as a significantly more sympathetic character to me. However, seemingly because he was carrying that gun, the events that unfurled that night resulted in an unnecessary death.
And I see what you mean about the greater need for protection if you're looking for troublemakers, but I suppose the idea is that not carrying a gun will discourage neighborhood watchmen from confronting suspicious people directly and leave that work for the cops. I know Zimmerman got out of the car to see what direction Martin was going, but perhaps he should have thought "I don't know what this kid is up to, but I am carrying a gun so I should probably stay in the car and avoid a possible confrontation."
Sure, it's within the realm of possibility that Zimmerman having a gun saved his life. We know for sure that carrying that gun cost Martin his life, though.

Jais · Jul 4, 2013

"Sure, but Zimmerman didn't want to kill the guy. he was visibly distressed when told that Martin had died.
Yeah, when you shoot someone you gotta be ready for the possibility that they're gonna die, but it seems more like Zimmerman shot him because he simply had no other choice, it was either shoot or be shot at.
In fact, wasn't it mentioned in the previous thread that Zimmerman was carrying a gun because of a loose pit bull? I haven't heard mention of that since, but if it's true it could indicate that Zimmerman had no intention of relying on his gun in any confrontation with another person at all. That would certainly explain why he wouldn't draw it while approached by Martin, or while Martin was beating him up. This actually makes him more sympathetic in my book, but it again suggests that carrying the gun had more to do with the death than anything else that occurred."

I actually agree with everything you just posted Tanoomba. But just because he didn't "want" to kill him doesn't make it an accidental death. I can purposefully shoot someone with the full intent of them dying and still not want them to die but like you said hand was forced, shot or be shot and the like.

Drinsic · Jul 4, 2013

Tanoomba_sl said:
Sure, it's within the realm of possibility that Zimmerman having a gun saved his life. We know for sure that carrying that gun cost Martin his life, though.

Good.

TrollfaceDeux · Jul 4, 2013

why does it even matter that gun may have lead to death.... presumptive conclusion of any deadly force is probable death but not absolutely....this is a danger which criminals or an alleged criminal should have been aware of in case they are to commit crime and face a lawful citizen who may possess these deadly fire-arms..either in property protection or self-defense cases...

Justice for Zimmerman

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