Justice for Zimmerman

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iannis

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I was talking to a friend about another guy we both know and basically can't stand. He was telling me something that jackhole did and I go, "God damn that guy's such a American Inventor". My friend told me with all seriousness, "Don't try to push him off onto us." He was right. I had to tell him I was sorry.

And that's why I hate polacks. Makin me all racist and shit.
 

W4RH34D_sl

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I was talking to a friend about another guy we both know and basically can't stand. He was telling me something that jackhole did and I go, "God damn that guy's such a American Inventor". My friend told me with all seriousness, "Don't try to push him off onto us." He was right. I had to tell him I was sorry.

And that's why I hate polacks. Makin me all racist and shit.
Good thing there's no question who accepts their lean drinkin/sellin' thug TM. Not only do they accept him, they want everyone to be like him.

(I would have not made this statement if it was just weed. Lean will kill you or cause brain damage)
 

fanaskin

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Most intelligent post in this entire thread. Most posters here choose to consider those who are upset with the result of the trial as being ignorant or brainwashed or emotional or irrational... "Why don't they just look at the facts?" A better question would be "Why was it so easy to get so many people riled up over this?" Lleauaric points out why this case struck a nerve, and why it's worth discussingeven ifthis particular case had nothing to do with racism. Yeah, everybody got it wrong, their anger about this case is misplaced and a result of shitty irresponsible "journalism", but the general unease about racial profiling is still something worth talking about because it's still a very real issue, even if it's not a key issue in this case.
Not really when you realize the circular logic you just employed, people got upset because of previous bias not because of rational thinking, you are excusing irrational behavior in a circular fashion, until we grow up as a society it will remain in this perpetual state because of race baiters that make an easy living and gain easy credibility from this attitude on non self reflection.

You are creating a feedback loop with this logic that perpetuates a cycle, so in reality you are being a conservative by perpetuating a system long in place probably before you where born, try being more liberal.
 

Vaclav

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im talking about legit starving people not bums who beg for cash then spend it all on booze or drugs then waste away and die. There are plenty of food pantries, soup kitchens and other resources to feed the homeless.
Depends on where - when I was living in the boonies we had probably two dozen homeless around that I knew of - and within walking distance - one soup kitchen, open ONCE a day, three days a week (Wed/Sat/Sun). And of course that soup kitchen was run by the local catholic church, so if you had a problem with the Catholic church - zero options.

Remember the average homeless person has a really small travel range in areas with poor public transit - good public transit reduces that astronomically. (and note, the aforementioned boonies [Carroll County, MD] literally had ZERO public transportation - our "public transportation" option was a "cheap" $15 fare from the taxi company to Owings Mills to get onto real public transit - hardly a cheap amount for a homeless person)
 

Vaclav

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Yeah I just wonder if the figure cited is for under-nourished aka kids eating garbage food, kids who only get fed twice a day instead of 3 or kids who are literally starving.
Absolute starvation figures are out there, but separate - last I saw around 1.5% or something for the US for "starving" people versus the quoted higher amount for undernourished.
 

Gavinmad

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Depends on where - when I was living in the boonies we had probably two dozen homeless around that I knew of - and within walking distance - one soup kitchen, open ONCE a day, three days a week (Wed/Sat/Sun). And of course that soup kitchen was run by the local catholic church, so if you had a problem with the Catholic church - zero options.
This is almost universally true, and it's not exclusive to Catholicism, the majority of places that offer help for the homeless only do so on the condition that they can repeatedly assault you with their beliefs, regardless of what yours may be.
 

Vaclav

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I quit my job to attend school full time. My (current)wife is pregnant and is on leave taking two online courses. I do all the shopping and cooking in the house and our (4) kids eat just fine. During my first marriage my wife and I both worked at McDonalds. Later she went on to to work as a CNA at a nursing home. Together we were lucky to clear $20k a year. All of our girls ate just fine. This statistic that MILLIONS of kids are STARVING is curious. Why are they starving? How? Foodstamps alone can reach $800 a month depending on income and number of children. I would have to question this number. It may be politically motivated because it's nearly impossible to starve in the country.
SNAP maximum is higher than its ever been and to get that much you'd have to have literally TEN secondary people on the SNAP account. (Assuming it doesn't cap before that - not sure on any cap or not) So that figure is meaningless - average SNAP benefit in the US is $140.

Especially when you're complaining that a small fraction is being overstated, while then hypocritically turning around to conflate an even smaller fraction.
 

Vaclav

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This is almost universally true, and it's not exclusive to Catholicism, the majority of places that offer help for the homeless only do so on the condition that they can repeatedly assault you with their beliefs, regardless of what yours may be.
Even the "just one" bit? After I left my parents home to join the real world in many urban/suburban areas between NYC suburbs, all damn over PA and Baltimore County, MD - the quantity of soup kitchens doesn't seem to be nearly as few. Although I will admit being that Towson, MD right next door to me appeared in a magazine as the "most lucrative panhandling place in the US" I'm likely a little jaded about it compared to my shiny eyed days of my youth too. [Also best pickup university in the US at TSU too - which has always been so relevant to me...]
 

Vaclav

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There's a reason SYG and the carry laws are in place today. People are fed up with it.

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Partially accurate, some of those "shall" and "may" issue states don't make it at all practical or frequent in issuing. MD has always been a "May-Issue" state on it (and was as far back as I'm aware) but there's very few (I want to say it was something like 20) issued a year, almost exclusive to retired police and military.
 

Vaclav

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What bothered me most about his comments is that he still takes it from the perspective that Zim followed Martin, something at the very least was never proven and most likely never happened. He says in so many words that Zim profiled Martin without any context behind why a black youth was suspicious in his neighborhood ( past crimes). At the same time I'm trying to figure out the underlying point, that because AA's has this long history, that's why they ignore facts and evidence and just cry racism whenever a black person dies at the hands of someone of any other race?
It's pretty much expected that if Trayvon was replaced with a suit and tie wearing white man that Zimmerman wouldn't have given him a second glance. And even if that general expectation for this specific event would've been wrong - it's true in a large number of other cases which this has become a dialogue for sounding those complaints from the people against Z's innocence.

Hell, as a young white kid WHILE CAUSING MINOR VANDALISM ON DEVILS NIGHT WITH A GROCERY BAG IN HAND a cop stopped, asked what we were doing out at that hour and told us to be good and left us alone didn't swing back or hassle our parents about it or anything. I can't see a black kid in my same shoes there not at least getting followed, his grocery bag searched (which was full of rotten eggs, TP and stinkbombs from what I recall), or something else. I was literally in the process of a minor crime and the cop stopped me on a time such nonsense is expected and gave me nothing more than a "Be good now".

[Although I will say, our cops were lazy as crap and from the three blacks at our school (Yes, we were THAT white - was 2k kids my starting year too before the new high school got built too) statements they were never hassled either or at least never to a degree they felt like commenting on]
 

khalid

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It's pretty much expected that if Trayvon was replaced with a suit and tie wearing white man that Zimmerman wouldn't have given him a second glance.
Sure, if he was a suit and tie wearing man, Zimmerman wouldn't have done anything. However, that is a ridiculous example because white people wearing suits and ties weren't breaking into houses in the neighborhood.

Now there is really no doubt that young black males get more scrutiny from law enforcement. Still, that really shouldn't have anything to do with this case, as there was a history of breakins in the neighborhood from young black males. It wasn't profiling based on race, it was profiling based on the physical description of past perps in the neighborhood.
 

Vaclav

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Obama should ask Mexicans how they're treated in the border states. "Profiling", which is such a terrible thing to do now, exists for a reason. And I can't see a black student attending Harvard arousing the same amount of suspicion as a black thug by these select groups and racists. If anything I'd figure the Harvard student would more than likely get shunned from black society, kind of like what seems to have started happening to RG3.
Depends on whom and the circumstance - are they critically watched on a daily basis, of course not - not nearly as frequently. But they still get critical looks/follows occasionally still.

Don't you remember the Boston professor issue shortly into his term? The cop wasn't a racist but looked at this black man, dressed well trying to sneak into a window of his house and reacted thinking he was trying to B/E even though it was his own damn house. Whereas a white person that would look less odd in that situation rarely gets bothered in such cases. (I've had to "break in" to my house countless times and never been bothered for it - hell, my wife even being a complete moron one time KICKED IN OUR FRONT DOOR to get in without being hassled for it.... well except by me once I had to pay for the damn thing...)
 

Gavinmad

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It's pretty much expected that if Trayvon was replaced with a suit and tie wearing white man that Zimmerman wouldn't have given him a second glance. And even if that general expectation for this specific event would've been wrong - it's true in a large number of other cases which this has become a dialogue for sounding those complaints from the people against Z's innocence.
If I saw a white man wearing a suit and a tie walking around in the rain at night in a neighborhood that had been the subject of multiple recent break-ins, I would call the cops on him. The fact that racism exists in the world should have nothing to do with this case, and racism never would have had anything to do with this case if it weren't for racist blacks doing everything in their power to try and create and inject a narrative about racism into the case.
 

Vaclav

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Sure, if he was a suit and tie wearing man, Zimmerman wouldn't have done anything. However, that is a ridiculous example because white people wearing suits and ties weren't breaking into houses in the neighborhood.

Now there is really no doubt that young black males get more scrutiny from law enforcement. Still, that really shouldn't have anything to do with this case, as there was a history of breakins in the neighborhood from young black males. It wasn't profiling based on race, it was profiling based on the physical description of past perps in the neighborhood.
I just made the "suit" part to make it clear that while perhaps he'd have done the same to a hoodie wearing white kid doing exactly the same behavior as Trayvon someone drastically different likely not so much. That appearance style whether from dress or skin color sets off some alarms to some people.

Gavinrad: I hope you read this response as well - my personal inclination is more towards his dress myself. I'm dubious if he'd have turned an eye to a suit wearing black man. Zimmerman from my personal take on things seems more "classist" than "racist" if I had to make a bet for a brainprobe result, which does have some racial indicators, but is it's own thing technically. [And note, I'm absolutely a classist myself - especially in how people are linguistically are a huge thing to me]
 

hodj

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It's pretty much expected that if Trayvon was replaced with a suit and tie wearing white man that Zimmerman wouldn't have given him a second glance.
Why is that? Because RACISM, or because the propensity for a guy in a suit walking down the street to be generally engaged in potential breakings and enterings is far less common than a guy in a hoodie walking down the street to be generally engaged in potential breakings and enterings?

Perceptions fucking matter. Hoodies, pants down around your knees, walking in certain ways which express physical strength or attempt to project an image of physical strength, all these things filter into our perceptions about one another. The argument appears to be, from reading this, that we should be forced to view someone wearing a hoodie walking down the street in the rain exactly the same as we would someone in a suit or we're racist.

I say that's a massive stretch of judgement. Hoodies are the modern day version of the trenchcoat. After the Columbine shootings back when I was a kid, kids like myself who wore trenchcoats because we were retarded and trying to be "goth" became suspicious as fuck to everyone around. People started thinking we were stealing from stores, we were going to shoot up schools, whatever.

Was that presumption (white kids in black trenchcoats = crazy and violent school shooting types) racist? Or just a result of a media overhyping the clothing a couple lunatics wore while they committed crimes?

I don't know, but I do know that judging someone based on how they dress and act isn't racist.
 

Vaclav

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Christ-Algoddamn-Mighty: DOES NO ONE HAVE A COMPLETE READING COMPREHENSION? I intentionally left three different angles there - I did not say "white man" which would've saved me typing for a reason.

Adult vs. Youth.
White vs. Black.
Well Dressed vs. "Thug" dress.

Why has there been literally THREE RESPONSES acting as if I only said "white kid/young adult"? As stated my money would go on #3 being the trigger if we had a time machine to run the scenario over and over.
 

hodj

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Because your argument is predicated on the concept that people should just view every single person exactly the same way if you don't know them. While admirable, its completely unrealistic. Its simply never going to happen.

You continue to assert things like "Zimmerman was a classist", too, which is still attempting to blame Zimmerman for the event. Theres zero evidence that Zimmerman is a bigot based on race OR class in this case. There just isn't. Zimmerman wasn't some rich upper middle class mother fucker dude.

Get off it already dude.
 

Vaclav

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Blame? No - I do the same fucking thing. It's just likely what set off his RADAR, just like if I saw a hoodie wearing person in my neighborhood late at night I'd likely call the police on them if they were wandering through people's yards and the like. (Although if I was in a townhome still the "barrier" before I'd consider things weird would likely be lower - not sure, been so long now since my first house)

You really love putting words in other people's fucking mouths, and it's really fucking annoying as shit. It's natural for people to profile to a degree (as people have been saying over and over in this thread the last few pages - conveniently none that you criticized by saying "YOU'RE BLAMING ZIMMERMAN FOR THE EVENT OMGIMAFUCKINGMOUTHBREATHINGRETARD1111!" like you're doing above) and there's nothing wrong with that - just a question of what the trigger is.

And "classist" just like being "racist" has varying degrees - suspicion at the lowest rungs all the way up through annoyance and blind hatred. I assume he'd fall into the suspicious range LIKE MYSELF.

Ideally in a perfect world no one would profile at all, but its part of our inherent programming which doesn't make it something blamable (plus as stated his instincts in such didn't make him do anything wrong - he took that base suspicion and handled it properly THAT'S THE IMPORTANT PART AND WHY HE DID NO REAL WRONG) - he could've handled things better, hindsight is always 20/20 - hell, he even said as much himself more than a few times. But no, I'm not blaming him for shit.

As far as I know the last time I called the cops on someone it caused a bad spiral of events as well that I didn't intend - doesn't mean I would accept blame for it either or expect anyone to assign it on me.

I anxiously wait how your "incredible intellect" will spin this into something else I'm not fucking saying again however.

For the record: I only "blame" anything where malice is involved personally - I've never felt, even day one with shitty media misinformation on this case that there was any "blame" to be had because there was always a clear lack of malice. It was a bad chain of events - and Z's profiling was as relevant to it as Trayvon not stocking up on treats before he went to the townhome or anything else in the chain of events - break one link and everything falls away. Ideally profiling wouldn't exist, but then again ideally people wouldn't do lots of things that are human nature and we'd be like a hivemind always bettering everyone. But we're nowhere near that - if we start getting close to that, maybe I'll start "blaming" profiling that results in benign activities like calling 311 and watching someone a bit.
 
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