Justice for Zimmerman

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hodj

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Its been about the election last year, ginning up the black vote in Florida, pushing anti Stand Your Ground legislation, and promoting the careers of race baiters, particularly Benjamin Crump.

Its completely counter productive to the progressive agenda. No matter what, no one can say Obama or Bush were any good at reigning in the most radical elements of their parties, but the Clintons...the Clintons could and did for most of a decade. So I still think Bill is the best President in my lifetime and probably always will. Here's to hoping Hilary comes in next election and we can leave all this nonsense of the past two presidencies behind.

I was simple stating that if you create a situation were a person feels threatened enough to defend themselves, you take on the responsibility of what results.
This isn't what happened, and we've been over this multiple times with multiple people in this thread making the exact claims you are claiming.

This is me, telling you, that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and the facts of the case do not now, nor have they ever, supported the claim you are making. George Zimmerman never confronted Martin. Never came within 30 yards of him, excepting while he was in his car, and Martin circled it threateningly, and once Martin returned from 100 plus yards away at his father's townhome, to attack Zimmerman.

The part I don't like however is that during that depiction, Trayvon has to be moving towards a stationary Zimmerman while stating Zimmerman is following him. That does not make any sense. I think when Zimmerman caught sight of Trayvon again he started to approach him, right before the confrontation.
If you watched the trial, you'd see that on the second day of questioning, Jeantel was shown to have been basically making up half of this narrative as she went along. She made up that Trayvon said Zimmerman was still following him, among other things.

I really suggest you just watch these testimonies from the trial

Jeantel (both days)
Dr Bao
Dr Rao
Dr DiMiao
Sergeant Serino

That's probably the most important ones, it will completely change your view of the case. It'll take most of the day, though. Just being honest.

Start here



Watch this one, and then most of part 4. That map and timeline was made before the trial, but was, again, confirmed accurate by the trial, the only real disparities come from the fact that Jeantel changed key parts of her testimony several times, but the part that never changed?

Martin was at his father's house, according to him, and then suddenly, a few minutes later, he was at the other end of the complex fighting Zimmerman.

The only logical conclusion is Martin moved from his father's home back to confront Zimmerman.
 

Abefroman

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It's amazing how much the media manipulates perceptions on stories by using different words. They keep saying stalking over and over even though it's not true. Next time you watch the news and when they talk about Chicago, pay attention to how they say the "gun violence" instead of "gang violence". Everyone living in Chicago knows it's gang violence but the media gives the impression that it's the wild wild west here. We know what neighborhoods to avoid because we have been doing that forever. This has all just turned into a anti-gun spin and fuck facts.
 

Gavinmad

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It's amazing how much the media manipulates perceptions on stories by using different words. They keep saying stalking over and over even though it's not true. Next time you watch the news and when they talk about Chicago, pay attention to how they say the "gun violence" instead of "gang violence". Everyone living in Chicago knows it's gang violence but the media gives the impression that it's the wild wild west here. We know what neighborhoods to avoid because we have been doing that forever. This has all just turned into a anti-gun spin and fuck facts.
The best part is that Illinois has had some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, but clearly it's a gun control problem.
 

Abefroman

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I was simple stating that if you create a situation were a person feels threatened enough to defend themselves, you take on the responsibility of what results. If I were to chase women down alleyways and they maced, tazed or shot me, I would bear the responsibility of having created the situation in the first place. That's it.

Reviewing the first post I see I was wrong.The initial pursuit, up to the point where the 911 operator tells Zimmerman to stop is about as much understanding of it as I had. If Zimmerman's position really did not change, then Trayvon had to return to him.

The part I don't like however is that during that depiction, Trayvon has to be moving towards a stationary Zimmerman while stating Zimmerman is following him. That does not make any sense. I think when Zimmerman caught sight of Trayvon again he started to approach him, right before the confrontation.
TM wasn't afraid or threatened, he was fucking pissed. All the facts point to this. TM being a young afraid black child running for his life is total and complete bullshit.
 

Homsar

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I was simple stating that if you create a situation were a person feels threatened enough to defend themselves, you take on the responsibility of what results. If I were to chase women down alleyways and they maced, tazed or shot me, I would bear the responsibility of having created the situation in the first place. That's it.

Reviewing the first post I see I was wrong.The initial pursuit, up to the point where the 911 operator tells Zimmerman to stop is about as much understanding of it as I had. If Zimmerman's position really did not change, then Trayvon had to return to him.

The part I don't like however is that during that depiction, Trayvon has to be moving towards a stationary Zimmerman while stating Zimmerman is following him. That does not make any sense. I think when Zimmerman caught sight of Trayvon again he started to approach him, right before the confrontation.
And you are still calling it a 911 call....
 

Abefroman

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The best part is that Illinois has had some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, but clearly it's a gun control problem.
Those laws pretty much keep guns out of the hands of non-criminals. Gangs have always been able to get guns and always will. I don't even like guns outside of hunting and I can tell these gun control laws will never work.
 

Arbitrary

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Blame the media. This line of bullshit was constantly fed by the media when the case got started and most people will eat whatever shit the media is shoveling them.
I knew the media was dildos but this trial has me genuinely worried. I didn't start watching it for the best reasons. 4chan was making thread after thread about Rachel's testimony so I started to tune in. I saw a young, urban woman who was disrespectful of the court, unreliable, inconsistent, and pretty much an asset for the defense. The way she talked didn't make her sound stupid. Her testimony that she didn't care about the depositions she gave or what she said on them is what made her sound stupid. Hey, I can't read cursive for shit either.

But the commentary from the media about her made no sense. HER TESTIMONY FORCES ZIMMERMAN TO TAKE THE STAND. HOME RUN. Wow, can you believe how mean the defense was to her? What a bunch of assholes. Were their racial connotations to their treatment of Rachel? I don't want to call those white guys racist but racism race race probably racists racial. The blog posts and news articles were even more ridiculous. They excused her rude behavior with a hand wave, completely ignored how damaging her testimony was for the prosecution, and focused on things like how many languages she speaks and whether or not her urban dialect was any more right or wrong than the King's English.

By the way. Did you guys hear that Rachel speaks THREE languages? How many do you speak? I heard that talking pointmultipletimes from Left oriented media outlets. Like it was some kind of stinger or something. Fine. She speaks three languages. She also did systemic damage to the prosecution's case. One of those things matters and one of those things does not.

So I'm watching the trial and checking in on this thread and the debate is fairly normal. Cad's giving us a whole mess of good info regarding why maybe the judge is acting like she is, there is discussion about the available charges and what's all going to get included, the different testimony, and so on. There's nothing crazy happening. The prosecution's case never stops seeming weak and the witnesses they call don't really seem to help. The state medical examiner testifying that he doesn't even remember the examination he gave? Wha? When the defense has their turn they call witness after witness and expert after expert that reinforces their version of events and the result fit expectations - acquittal. The elements of murder in the second degree were objectively not present in this case and self defense is an absolute defense against homicide.

The day the verdict comes in this thread suddenly starts to fill up with people who have zero idea, and I mean zero, what happened in this case. The events that are not and were not in dispute are suddenly in dispute. Zimmerman, a wannabee cop, chased after some scared black kid against police orders and shot the kid and got off due to Florida's retarded Stand Your Ground laws. Can you believe this miscarriage of justice?
 

BoldW

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If a racist rapist were following me, I'd run home, but then be so freaked out that I'd run around for a few more minutes until my fist accidentally hit the rapist's face out of fear.

I love that everyone can dismiss the only account we have of what happened, which is backed by evidence, yet fabricate Martin's state of mind and actions, changing it as needed to fit whatever story they feel like spewing. He was stalked and attacked while innocently skipping home from the store. Oh, too obviously wrong? He thought George was a rapist. Does that work? Umm, what about the scared animal angle? Is that a good one? Still fits the race bait? OK, let's go with that for now, though we may still need to fall back on one of the other un-provable therefore correct stories. As long as we paint GZ as the crazy racist one, sky's the limit!
 

Pancreas

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Well if Zimmerman's position does not change from the point where the 911 operator tells him to stop pursuing, that means Martin had to return to him. If that is the case then Martin was obviously not afraid enough to be running for his life. I understand that now, and realize that Zimmerman remained stationary.

My previous statement was based on a bad assumption that Zimmerman pursued Martin right up to the confrontation. I still think the last few moments before the altercation Zimmerman approached Martin, otherwise Martin's statements about being followed make zero sense. But this was after Martin returned to Zimmerman's location having thought he had lost him.

My statement about being responsible for creating a threatening situation still stands, and has nothing to do with race based culpability. It is however not applicable to this case.
 

hodj

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My previous statement was based on a bad assumption that Zimmerman pursued Martin right up to the confrontation.
Yes, we know. We want you to realize that this is also a bad assumption:

I still think the last few moments before the altercation Zimmerman approached Martin, otherwise Martin's statements about being followed make zero sense
Martin probably never did actually make that statement. We don't know. Jeantel's story on this has changed like 8 times, and its the only person who can relate what Martin may or may not have said. That's why I said, most of her testimony is uncredible, and that timeline was made from statement prior to the trial. We learned more during the trial, all of which verifies the core of the timeline, but which brings into question other testimony by Jeantel, let me add, entirely because she herself brought the testimony into question. She admits lying, on the stand, more than a handful of times during counter interrogation by the Defense. Her argument is that "She lied because during the deposition she was in a hurry" or "She lied because she was writing a letter to Martin's mother and didn't want to tell her all the details that might make her feel bad" etc. Just watch the testimony I linked and the next part, part 4/6. Just watch it. You'll be blown away.

My statement about being responsible for creating a threatening situation still stands
No, it doesn't. Calling the police on a suspicious person and trying to report the changing position of that person to the police, while remaining well over 30 yards away at all times (such to the point that once Martin goes around the townhomes he's able to get completely out of sight of Zimmerman before he is able to catch up and round the townhomes) is not creating a "threatening situation".

Attacking someone for calling the police on you is creating a threatening situation.
 

hodj

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How many times do we need to say it 311 operator and essentially told him to follow him at one point
Right, and plus as has been pointed out several times over, it wouldn't matter anyway, 911/311 it doesn't matter. They have no legal authority to command you do to do anything. None.

And if I felt my life was threatened and 911 told me not to defend myself, they can happily go fuck themselves.
 

Pancreas

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No, it doesn't. Calling the police on a suspicious person and trying to report the changing position of that person to the police, while remaining well over 30 yards away at all times (such to the point that once Martin goes around the townhomes he's able to get completely out of sight of Zimmerman before he is able to catch up and round the townhomes) is not creating a "threatening situation".

Attacking someone for calling the police on you is creating a threatening situation.
And the rest of my statement said it was not applicable to this case, because Zimmerman did not act in the way I had assumed. So I agree with you.
 

Arbitrary

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You are fucking this all up Pancreas. You are supposed to double and triple down, ignore anything anyone says, and chain race bait for at least 28 hours.
 

Tuco

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What's lost in this discussion is the fact that there's not much GZ could've done that would've excused TM from cold-cocking him, straddling him and beating the shit out of him for 45s. And once GZ was in that position his was well within his right to shoot TM.
 

hodj

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And the rest of my statement said it was not applicable to this case, because Zimmerman did not act in the way I had assumed. So I agree with you.
Good.

I'm glad you're capable of seeing reason. You have to understand that the experience in this thread thus far has been that people who have come in since the trial and stated the exact opinion the exact way you have have been incredibly difficult to convince that their preconceived notions, formulated on blatantly untrue and basically racist media narratives, were wrong.

This thread has literally defined self reinforcing perception bias syndrome as a legitimate psychological phenomena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirm...edited_beliefs

You are fucking this all up Pancreas. You are supposed to double and triple down, ignore anything anyone says, and chain race bait for at least 28 hours.
I'm not disappointed in him. I'm proud.

What's lost in this discussion is the fact that there's not much GZ could've done that would've excused TM from cold-cocking him, straddling him and beating the shit out of him for 45s. And once GZ was in that position his was well within his right to shoot TM.
This is correct. I mean you can even start a fight, and lose it, but once the guy has you on the ground or in a position where you can't flee, and is continuing to beat on you even after you've submitted, that is a mitigating circumstance that will allow you to claim self defense if you then shoot them.

These cases can be broken down almost to the second by second, blow by blow, when they need to be, to determine who was at fault at what moment and at what exact moment the potential aggressor became a defender. I'm sure there's been more than one case of a bar brawl gone wrong where someone got shot and someone else got off because, even though they started the fight, once they were beaten and submissive, the other person continued to attack them, justifying use of deadly force.
 
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