Lumi's Batshit Insane Thread

hodj · Feb 27, 2015

They aren't genetic illnesses you fucking idiot

Really? So Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva is NOT caused by an autosomal dominant mutation in the ACVR1 gene that disrupts the shape of a member of the protein family called bone morphogenetic protein (BMP), causing muscle and fibrous skeletal tissue to be repaired with ossification centers, causing muscle toliterallyturn to bone?

Then what, sir, is your alternative hypothesis and explanation?

And trisomy isn't caused by non disjunction of chromatids during meisos?

Really?

Thats interesting.

I bet every single parent of every single child with Down Syndrome on this planet would like to beat you in the face right now for your disgusting degrees of ignorance and your absurd assertion that these diseases are a result of "malnutrition" which doesn't even make fucking sense, you mouth breathing, goat fucking retard.

Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva - Genetics Home Reference

What is fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva?
Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva (FOP) is a disorder in which muscle tissue and connective tissue such as tendons and ligaments are gradually replaced by bone (ossified), forming bone outside the skeleton (extra-skeletal or heterotopic bone) that constrains movement. This process generally becomes noticeable in early childhood, starting with the neck and shoulders and proceeding down the body and into the limbs.

Extra-skeletal bone formation causes progressive loss of mobility as the joints become affected. Inability to fully open the mouth may cause difficulty in speaking and eating. Over time, people with this disorder may experience malnutrition due to their eating problems. They may also have breathing difficulties as a result of extra bone formation around the rib cage that restricts expansion of the lungs.

Any trauma to the muscles of an individual with fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva, such as a fall or invasive medical procedures, may trigger episodes of muscle swelling and inflammation (myositis) followed by more rapid ossification in the injured area. Flare-ups may also be caused by viral illnesses such as influenza.

People with fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva are generally born with malformed big toes. This abnormality of the big toes is a characteristic feature that helps to distinguish this disorder from other bone and muscle problems. Affected individuals may also have short thumbs and other skeletal abnormalities.

How common is fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva?

Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva is a very rare disorder, believed to occur in approximately 1 in 2 million people worldwide. Several hundred cases have been reported.
What genes are related to fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva?

Mutations in the ACVR1 gene cause fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva.

The ACVR1 gene provides instructions for producing a member of a protein family called bone morphogenetic protein (BMP) type I receptors. The ACVR1 protein is found in many tissues of the body including skeletal muscle and cartilage. It helps to control the growth and development of the bones and muscles, including the gradual replacement of cartilage by bone (ossification) that occurs in normal skeletal maturation from birth to young adulthood.
Researchers believe that a mutation in the ACVR1 gene may change the shape of the receptor under certain conditions and disrupt mechanisms that control the receptor's activity. As a result, the receptor may be constantly turned on (constitutive activation). Constitutive activation of the receptor causes overgrowth of bone and cartilage and fusion of joints, resulting in the signs and symptoms of fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva.

Read more about the ACVR1 gene.

How do people inherit fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva?

This condition is inherited in an autosomal dominant pattern, which means one copy of the altered gene in each cell is sufficient to cause the disorder.
Most cases of fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva result from new mutations in the gene. These cases occur in people with no history of the disorder in their family. In a small number of cases, an affected person has inherited the mutation from one affected parent.

Lumi · Feb 27, 2015

hodj_sl said:
Really? So Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva is NOT caused by an autosomal dominant mutation in the ACVR1 gene that disrupts the shape of a member of the protein family called bone morphogenetic protein (BMP), causing muscle and fibrous skeletal tissue to be repairs with ossification centers, causing muscle toliterallyturn muscle to bone?

Then what, sir, is your alternative hypothesis and explanation?

And trisomy isn't caused by non disjunction of chromatids during meisos?

Really?

Thats interesting.

I bet every single parent of every single child with Down Syndrome on this planet would like to beat you in the face right now for your disgusting degrees of ignorance and your absurd assertion that these diseases are a result of "malnutrition" which doesn't even make fucking sense, you mouth breathing, goat fucking retard.

Well the cause you're asserting is indeed what's happening but those mutations are caused by malnutrition brought about by an onset of either poor diet and/or environmental toxicity. These mutations simply do not just occur randomly. Law of cause and effect buddy, look it up.

hodj · Feb 27, 2015

Well the cause you're asserting is indeed what's happening but those mutations are caused by malnutrition

Stupid and incorrect.

This disease is caused by a single parent carrying a single copy of the mutated gene in their gametes. That is not caused by "malnutrition". Most mutations are caused by mutagens, and errors during cell division, and can be caused by a wide range of environmental, chemical and other pressures, including random mutation, failure in DNA replicase enzymes, so forth and so on.

Demonstrate to us a single peer reviewed source showing that Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressive is caused by "malnutrition"

Go on.

These mutations simply do not just occur randomly

Evolution 101: Mutation Is Not "Directed"

Mutations are Random

The mechanisms of evolution-like natural selection and genetic drift-work with the random variation generated by mutation.

Factors in the environment are thought to influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation. For example, exposure to harmful chemicals may increase the mutation rate, but will not cause more mutations that make the organism resistant to those chemicals. In this respect, mutations are random-whether a particular mutation happens or not is generally unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

In the U.S., where people use shampoos with particular chemicals in order to kill lice, we have a lot of lice that are resistant to the chemicals in those shampoos. There are two possible explanations for this:

Scientists generally think that the first explanation is the right one and that directed mutations, the second possible explanation, is not correct.

Researchers have performed many experiments in this area. Though results can be interpreted in several ways, none unambiguously support directed mutation. Nevertheless, scientists are still doing research that provides evidence relevant to this issue.
In addition, experiments have made it clear that many mutations are in fact "random," and did not occur because the organism was placed in a situation where the mutation would be useful. For example, if you expose bacteria to an antibiotic, you will likely observe an increased prevalence of antibiotic resistance. In 1952, Esther and Joshua Lederberg determined that many of these mutations for antibiotic resistance existed in the population even before the population was exposed to the antibiotic - and that exposure to the antibiotic did not cause those new resistant mutants to appear1. [/quote]

Types of mutations

print print
DNA and Mutations :

Types of mutations

There are many different ways that DNA can be changed, resulting in different types of mutation. Here is a quick summary of a few of these:
Substitution Substitution
A substitution is a mutation that exchanges one base for another (i.e., a change in a single "chemical letter" such as switching an A to a G). Such a substitution could:
change a codon to one that encodes a different amino acid and cause a small change in the protein produced. For example, sickle cell anemia is caused by a substitution in the beta-hemoglobin gene, which alters a single amino acid in the protein produced.
change a codon to one that encodes the same amino acid and causes no change in the protein produced. These are called silent mutations.
change an amino-acid-coding codon to a single "stop" codon and cause an incomplete protein. This can have serious effects since the incomplete protein probably won't function.

insertion Insertion
Insertions are mutations in which extra base pairs are inserted into a new place in the DNA.

deletion Deletion
Deletions are mutations in which a section of DNA is lost, or deleted.

frameshift Frameshift
Since protein-coding DNA is divided into codons three bases long, insertions and deletions can alter a gene so that its message is no longer correctly parsed. These changes are called frameshifts.
For example, consider the sentence, "The fat cat sat." Each word represents a codon. If we delete the first letter and parse the sentence in the same way, it doesn't make sense.

In frameshifts, a similar error occurs at the DNA level, causing the codons to be parsed incorrectly. This usually generates truncated proteins that are as useless as "hef atc ats at" is uninformative.

There are other types of mutations as well, but this short list should give you an idea of the possibilities.

All of these random mutations have been directly observed in nature and in the lab, in whole genome sequencing and various other methodologies. You aren't just wrong, you're fractally fucking wrong.

Lumi · Feb 27, 2015

This disease is caused by a single parent carrying a single copy of the mutated gene in their gametes. That is not caused by "malnutrition". Most mutations are caused by mutagens, and errors during cell division, and can be caused by a wide range of environmental, chemical and other pressures, including random mutation, failure in DNA replicase enzymes, so forth and so on.

And these errors during cell division are caused by malnutrition and/or environmental toxicity. It's a proven fact that antioxidants received from various food sources prevent damage to the telomeres of the DNA, preventing these so-called "random" mutations.

hodj · Feb 27, 2015

And these errors during cell division are caused by malnutrition and/or environmental toxicity

Some are caused by the latter, but not the former. Find us a single peer review article demonstrating that malnutrition causes Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva. That is your claim: Malnutrition causes genetic disorders. Prove it.

hodj · Feb 27, 2015

Let's face a few facts here, Lumie.

1. You've never heard of this disease before
2. Your base assertion that malnutrition causes genetic disorders is just pulled directly out of your ass
3. Your assertion explains nothing about this disorder, including its underlying cause.
4. You don't even understand what an autosomal dominant genetic condition is
5. You're a Poe, which is why you have like 3 talking points you go over and over ad naseum and as soon as you're taken out of your element, you flail like a retard for any port in a storm
6. There is not a single scholarly article, or even a single link in a plain old Google search, demonstrating a causal link between "malnutrition" and "genetic disorders formed during gametogenesis and meiosis"

You got nuthin. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. No come backs. No explanations. No response but stuttering "But but muh MALNUTRITIONS" and yeah.

You're pretty well done here, I'd say.

iannis · Feb 27, 2015

You know though, what lumie is saying is basically absurd, but there is something that's related which isn't. It's been a year or two but I do remember reading a fairly comprehensive statistical study that nutritionmighthave genetic effects across the generations.

I guess if you're lumie you extrapolate that idea back to adam and eve and assert that all bodily dysfunction comes from original sin.

hodj · Feb 27, 2015

He's not extrapolating shit. He's just desperately throwing shit at a wall hoping some of it will stick.

Malnutrition will kill an adult, much less a fetus. Saying that "All genetic disorders are the direct result of malnutrition" and "random mutations do not occur" is just demonstrably, factually incorrect.

It very well may be that some genetic disorders can be triggered or the result of, a malnutritive state in a parent. But that wouldn't indicate ALL are, or that the particular diseases in question (trisomy, fibrodysplasia, etc) are caused by, particularly exclusively by, malnutrition.

Instead, geneticists have identified the exact substition mutation responsible for fibrodysplasia

Penn Researchers Discover Gene That Creates Second Skeleton

Indeed, the FOP gene encodes a BMP receptor called Activin Receptor Type IA, or ACVR1, one of three known BMP Type I receptors. BMP receptors are protein switches that help determine the fate of the stem cells in which they are expressed. The ACVR1 protein is 509 amino acids long, and in FOP the amino acid histidine is substituted for the amino acid arginine at amino acid position 206 in all affected individuals.

FOP is the first human genetic disease ascribed to ACVR1. "Our identification of ACVR1 as a critical regulator of endochondral bone formation during embryogenesis and in post-natal tissues will undoubtedly re-focus thinking and stimulate new research directions," says Shore. "This discovery will have a major impact on the study of skeletal biology and regenerative medicine.

"This single amino acid substitution is predicted to change the sensitivity and activity of the receptor," continues Shore. "As is the case for most genes, every cell has two copies of the ACVR1 gene. In FOP patients, one of the two ACVR1 gene copies harbors a mutation that causes the ACVR1 protein to be incorrectly made."

In FOP, the ACVR1 gene is damaged by the substitution of a single genetic letter at a specific location in the gene. The single nucleotide substitution changes the meaning of the genetic message encoded by the ACVR1 gene. "Thus, the substitution of one genetic letter for another out of six billion genetic letters in the human genome - the smallest and most precise change imaginable - is like a molecular terrorist that short circuits a functioning set of muscles and connective tissues and transforms them into a second skeleton - in essence turning a light bulb into an atom bomb," says Kaplan.

ACVR1 is an important BMP signaling switch in cartilage cells of the growth plates of growing bones, especially in the hands and feet, as well as in the cells of skeletal muscle. In previous studies in chickens and zebrafish, other researchers have found that an artificially made "trigger happy" copy of the ACVR1 gene (similar, but not identical to the FOP gene mutation) makes muscle cells behave like bone cells, upregulating BMP4 expression; downregulating BMP antagonist expression (such as noggin); expanding cartilage elements in growing bone, eventually inducing extra bone growth; and stimulating joint fusion - clinical and molecular features nearly identical to those seen in individuals with FOP.

If "malnutrition" was the cause of this genetic disorder, then we might expect to see significantly higher rates of fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva in poor populations. But we don't. The rate is pretty much 1 in every 2 million or so humans, period. No environmental factors seem to be involved at all. There is no geographic bias, no hereditary bias in terms of ethnicity or race, no bias in the people afflicted by wealth or social status. Just a random substitution mutation during gamete production that afflicts 1 in every 2 million or so extremely unfortunate human beings.

Kuro · Feb 27, 2015

Obviously their muscles are turning into bone because God wants them to be badass skeleton warriors.

Hoss · Feb 27, 2015

Hodj, I want you to know I read every word of your massive troll response to me, but I forgot to mark it for the multiquote. I was going to stop reading, but it was so beautiful that you used so many words to try and convince everyone you weren't trying to baffle with bullshit, that i felt it deserved to be read. If I had detected some copy/pasta I woulda stopped.

Ambiturner_sl said:
Louis Pasteur quote:

"Religion has no more place in science than science has in religion."

Whether louie really said this or not, it is 100% what I believe. That's why it's so frustrating when people think I'm being some creationist shill for daring to question.

Abefroman_sl said:
Why can people so easily accept the concept that a creator just popped out of nowhere and created the universe but the universe just existing without a creator is nonsense?

In short (Hey hodj, pay attention, this is how you answer a direct question concisely), logically speaking, something had to come first. If you follow the idea that everything was created by something to its conclusion, you eventually realize that something had to exist first in order for anything to be created. Religious types call that thing that existed first God. Whether it's the Christian idea of God, or the laws of physics, or whatever else you please. That thing is God.

Hoss · Feb 27, 2015

Bah, double post. Might as well split up that multiquote

hodj_sl said:
Its pretty clear at this point he's a Poe, in my opinion. I no longer believe he actually believes anything he claims to believe.

What is a poe?

hodj_sl said:
If the Devil wrote the Bible, instead of Yahweh, how can we tell the difference?

STONE HIM, HE SAID YAWEH's NAME!

khalid_sl said:
Lumie not believing in evolution is one thing. Dude is clearly mentally deranged. However, people like a_skeleton_03 and Hoss doubting it just makes me sad.

Thanks bro, that really touches me

/brohug

iannis · Feb 27, 2015

The one I remember is that they were looking at grandparent/grandchild relationships, and I think they found a lower life expectancy for the grandchildren if the grandparents had experienced poor or malnutrition in their youth.

And we're not talking about shithole africa where you go, "Well duh. Obviously" They were looking at depression era American families which returned to affluence. And obviously there are too many factors to account for, and no result you can derive from looking at statistics is going to be conclusive. It was more along the lines of, "This is kind of interesting. It might actually mean something".

Which is the only reason I remember it. It actually was sort of interesting. I have no idea if it means something. I don't think the authors did either.

hodj · Feb 27, 2015

Hoss if you accuse me of trying to lie to you or responding to you in a non serious, or trolling way, again I'm going to put you on ignore. Its that simple. I've been honest with you and you're now demonstrating your inability to deal honestly with me.

logically speaking, something had to come first.

Just because you say "Logically speaking" doesn't mean what you said was logical. The claim that something had to come "First" is an assertion. Demonstrate your reasoning for why you think it is logical to infer a beginning.

We will examine your evidence and claim and help elucidate for you whether it is actually logical or not.

\Religious types call that thing that existed first God. Whether it's the Christian idea of God, or the laws of physics, or whatever else you please. That thing is God.

This is a violation of the laws of identity and non contradiction. First and foremost, the "laws of physics" are "the laws of physics" They aren't "God". And the universe isn't either. And just labeling anything that 2deep4u as "God" isn't remotely a valid classification strategy, or methodology for discerning the truth about reality from fictional concepts.

Just because some straw grasping religious folks relabel everything that confuses them as God does not mean those things are God. This is a category fallacy you are making as well. Things are what they are, and are not what they are not. This is actually logically sound. Its called the law of identity and the law of non contradiction. Which means God is whatever God is, and is not all this other stuff people keep relabeling as "God".

What is a poe?

A Poe is a fake fundamentalist.

Poe's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Poe's law, in broader form, states:

Without a blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of extremism or fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing.[3]

The core of Poe's law is that a parody of something extreme, by nature, becomes impossible to differentiate from sincere extremism. A corollary of Poe's law is the reverse phenomenon: sincere fundamentalist beliefs can be mistaken for a parody of those beliefs.[3]

Which, by the way, is why people all think you're a Creationist when you make Creationist style arguments, claim people being purposefully entirely honest with you are trolls and liars, and then repeat over and over "I don't get it" when confronted with about the most simplistic layman's models for these phenomena that any human being can reasonable provide.

If you follow the idea that everything was created by something to its conclusion

Demonstrate that something can't come from nothing. How can you? You've never had a nothing to examine to determine if something can't come from it or not. Your "logic" isn't really "logical" its a regurgitation of Aquinas's five ways trying to justify a god's existence, and they're all flawed, almost all from the initial premise, two of which explicitly make basal assertions about reality that we can't know for certain in the first place.

All of Aquinas's arguments are essentially "Proof by 'Well do you have a better idea?'"

And at the time he was writing, circa 1200 CE, no one did.

Aquinas: Monkeys stole my wallet
Me: I doubt that claim
Aquinas: Well, do you know who stole it?
Me: No.
Aquinas: Well, then! Since you don't have an answer and I do, I'm going with monkeys.

There are numerous other options. Aquinas lost his wallet. I stole his wallet. Someone else stole his wallet.

And in the same way, there are valid arguments that a "first cause" is logically unsound. I've made several of them in regards to Dumar's argument that "Atheists can't justify existence" argument. If you'd like to retread that territory, go read that argument first, and come back with questions/rebuttals.

lurkingdirk · Feb 27, 2015

A couple of things:

Lumie, why do you feel it necessary to insult people so much?

If you're going to have a conversation about what God was doing before creation, you need to frame it differently. Time is a created thing, and the creator is not bound by creation. Being linear creatures who exist in time, it is beyond our comprehension to imagine existence without time. So, for the purposes of this discussion, God wasn't doing anything "before" creation. Nor is he currently existing in any particular point in time. God is outside of time, not bound by his own creation.

Void · Feb 27, 2015

Hoss_sl said:
Hodj, I want you to know I read every word of your massive troll response to me, but I forgot to mark it for the multiquote. I was going to stop reading, but it was so beautiful that you used so many words to try and convince everyone you weren't trying to baffle with bullshit, that i felt it deserved to be read. If I had detected some copy/pasta I woulda stopped.

You HAVE to be farming negs. That's the only explanation I can come up with. Or you're just purposely being obtuse to get a rise out of people. It doesn't require you to believe what he is saying to understand that he's not in any way trying to baffle you with bullshit. The only other possible explanation is that you simply aren't a smart man, but I don't like to jump to that insulting conclusion with someone I don't know, since you could easily just be trolling.

hodj · Feb 27, 2015

lurkingdirk_sl said:
If you're going to have a conversation about what God was doing before creation, you need to frame it differently. Time is a created thing, and the creator is not bound by creation. Being linear creatures who exist in time, it is beyond our comprehension to imagine existence without time. So, for the purposes of this discussion, God wasn't doing anything "before" creation. Nor is he currently existing in any particular point in time. God is outside of time, not bound by his own creation.

See, here's the problem, historically and otherwise, about this idea.

God as originally conceived was an active player in the universe. It was only after the religious were FORCED to give up this ridiculous belief (which, by the way, many still haven't because there's lots of bible thumpers and others that believe prayer/etc actually work and miracles are real things and happen even now in our lifetimes) that they came up with this idea that "God was outside time and space".

Basically, this entire line of thinking is just excuse making goal post shifting on the part of believers who were confronted with the fact that the top of Mount Olympus doesn't have a giant house full of the Gods on it, so they had to move their God outside time and space to make him UNFALSIFIABLE.

It was intellectually dishonest in the 1700 and 1800s when these ideas started to really coalesce, and its just as dishonest now, in terms of overall theological outlook.

But accepting this premise is true, there's literally no way to demonstrate it. And the injection of the "God hypothesis" in every case asserts an extra assumption that is simply unnecessary, such as the claim that "God is necessarily existing". If God can be necessarily existant, then the Universe/Multiverse can as well, and now we've excised an unnecessary assumption from our models, and are left with an entirely parsimonious answer that is most consistent with the information and understanding we have at this time.

God is an unnecessary injection based on human arrogance. Occam's razor cuts His throat.

Lumi · Feb 27, 2015

hodj_sl said:
He's not extrapolating shit. He's just desperately throwing shit at a wall hoping some of it will stick.

Malnutrition will kill an adult, much less a fetus. Saying that "All genetic disorders are the direct result of malnutrition" and "random mutations do not occur" is just demonstrably, factually incorrect.

It very well may be that some genetic disorders can be triggered or the result of, a malnutritive state in a parent. But that wouldn't indicate ALL are, or that the particular diseases in question (trisomy, fibrodysplasia, etc) are caused by, particularly exclusively by, malnutrition.

ALL disease is caused by malnutrition. I don't think you quite realize just how many different nutrients and vitamins and minerals the body needs to sustain it's existence.

Essential amino acids cannot be made by the body. As a result, they must come from food. The nine essential amino acids are: histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.

This is just one small example of how malnutrition causes genetic deterioration. If you go even a single day without consuming all 9 of these ESSENTIAL amino acids, your body will degenerate although the effects of this take a very long time to build up into diseases and dramatic genetic damage. Your body needs far more than just these 9 amino acids and if you're not getting them every single day your body slowly breaks down bit by bit. The body can go for a while without most of these things but you're basically forcing your cells to work overtime and they can only take so much of a burden until they ultimately crash and you end up with a serious disease or worse, death. There's literally hundreds and even thousands of different things the body needs to maintain peak physical health and the bottom line is most people simply aren't getting them which is what is resulting in these genetic mutations you're speaking of.

khalid · Feb 27, 2015

Hodj, I think you are wrong in saying Luminati is fake. If he was fake, I think he would put some effort into it. Why go into the effort of creating some false persona and then not even bother looking up some rebuttal's?

In the end though, it doesn't matter. Still fun to mock him and talk about science and scientists in the meantime.

khalid · Feb 27, 2015

Hoss_sl said:
Whether louie really said this or not, it is 100% what I believe. That's why it's so frustrating when people think I'm being some creationist shill for daring to question.

"Daring to question" evolution at this point is about as silly as "daring to question" gravity. All of modern biology is based on it, and many other disciplines. Even computer science has a subfield based on it.

Daring to question it doesn't make you a creationist shill. It makes you ignorant. Fortunately, you can fix ignorance. Plenty of resources have been linked by Hodj, but you can also just go with any biology textbook if you happen to have one, or even look up college biology courses online.

Itzena_sl · Feb 27, 2015

Lumie, what's your opinion on this?

Nevada Lawmaker Says Cancer Is A Fungus, Recommends Simply Washing It Out | ThinkProgress

Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore (R) wants to reform the rules of end-of-life medical care so that more cancer patients can simply flush out their disease using baking soda.

Fiore, who is also CEO of a healthcare company, told listeners to her weekly radio show on Saturday, that she will soon introduce a ?terminally ill bill,? to allow more non-FDA-approved treatments for those diagnosed as having terminal illnesses.

As first reported by Jon Ralston, Fiore told listeners: ?If you have cancer, which I believe is a fungus, and we can put a pic line into your body and we?re flushing, let?s say, salt water, sodium cardonate [sic], through that line, and flushing out the fungus? These are some procedures that are not FDA-approved in America that are very inexpensive, cost-effective.?

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