Mad Men

Cantatus_sl said:

The biggest sacrifice will be working under Lou, which Don might not even realize at this point. He hasn't interacted with Lou enough to know what his work ethic is like and that he's content with "good enough."

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Yeah he had already brushed off yet another offer to go to McCann, joking with his advertising buddy about it in the process. He's about to find out that he's working for the same sort of place now after all.

There are better ways to make them shit or get off the pot besides giving them the ability to eradicate your stake in the company at a subjective drop of the hat. It was weak.

spronk_sl said:

orders the CIA to assassinate everyone at SCP except Roger

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and takes out a hit on Duck Phillips instead. I always hated him.

I don't much like Lou after what he did to Dawn and all but man, he's going to be in one hell of a position trying to supervise a recognized industry genius. Is Lou going to tell Don no?

I think if I were Lou, I'd try to get Don on my side by protecting him from the higher ups. I'd say things like, "he's my employee ain't he? Let me handle things." and so on.

This show isn't like other shows, there doesn't have to be a happy ending. It can get dark quick. Don could actually jump out a window or something.

I don't think it's surprising at all that Don said OK to the deal so quickly, nor do I think it is even a little bit out of character. Don has never cared about money. He got to where he is because he literally didn't care about money, he cared so little he wasn't afraid to make everyone in the firm (including his bosses) do exactly as he said and give him exactly what he asked for time and again. He's a narcissist, he derives no greater pleasure than seeing people grovel at his feet. But at some point everyone reflects and loses their confidence, Don has lost his because no matter what he has done nothing has been working. He's losing every battle he fights, he's starting to doubt himself. That's why he said OK, he needs to get back to work to feel some stability and he wants to do it in a familiar place. I thought it was brilliant writing and true to form human nature for a personality like Don. I've seen it first hand in my actual, real life. He wants to feel some semblance of control and then he can regain everything he's lost. That's how he's thinking right now. He might even be slightly, sincerely apologetic.

Khane_sl said:

I don't think it's surprising at all that Don said OK to the deal so quickly, nor do I think it is even a little bit out of character. Don has never cared about money. He got to where he is because he literally didn't care about money, he cared so little he wasn't afraid to make everyone in the firm (including his bosses) do exactly as he said and give him exactly what he asked for time and again.He's a narcissist, he derives no greater pleasure than seeing people grovel at his feet.But at some point everyone reflects and loses their confidence, Don has lost his because no matter what he has done nothing has been working. He's losing every battle he fights, he's starting to doubt himself. That's why he said OK, he needs to get back to work to feel some stability and he wants to do it in a familiar place. I thought it was brilliant writing and true to form human nature for a personality like Don. I've seen it first hand in my actual, real life. He wants to feel some semblance of control and then he can regain everything he's lost. That's how he's thinking right now. He might even be slightly, sincerely apologetic.

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I don't fully agree with narcissist, but agree with the sentiment in terms of power (Groveling). Don doesn't care about money, Don cares about power. The first 20 years of his life were completely powerless; and as he said in the first season "maybe I'm just not as comfortable being powerless as you". Do you remember when Pete had Don over a barrel? And Don was willing to toss not only his career, but his freedom, his kids, his family away just to give Pete the finger and tell him he won't be powerless? He'd rather have watched it ALL burn to the ground, than accept even the most minor capitulation. (IE watching Pete rise)

Don cares about power; he cares about being in control of his own destiny. If you notice in the episode before, there were all kind of allusions about destiny (Petes girlfriend talks about how sales people need to take their sales from the hands of others and they aren't really in control). The episodes thus far have all been about power and power plays; Peggy attempting to get her idea passed Lou and Lou regecting a good idea just to stake out his territory. Or Cutler vs Roger, or even how Cutler promoted Joan so he could gain allies. Power plays.

It's not about money; it's about power. And Don agreed to essentially go from a very strong position, to a weak one where he has to be the one grovelling before a hack like Lou. Don agreed to give up ALL of his power; the few things that allow him to have people grovel, all for what? Control? What control though? Lou is going to be in control.

You see why this doesn't make sense to me? I never once thought it was about money; Don's turned down millions before, and gambled millions on ridiculous risk. He's always not understood money, or how people worry over it (And two people have died due to it). Everything I didn't understand from the board meeting was about how much power Don just frittered away so meekly. It was just such a 180; and yes, some of it I agree with sincere character growth--my problem was just the sheer amount. Like I said, had they asked for less capitulations, I could have seen it; but they essentially asked him to lube up and told him if he so much as winces they win.

Lithose_sl said:

I don't fully agree with narcissist, but agree with the sentiment in terms of power (Groveling). Don doesn't care about money, Don cares about power. The first 20 years of his life were completely powerless; and as he said in the first season "maybe I'm just not as comfortable being powerless as you". Do you remember when Pete had Don over a barrel? And Don was willing to toss not only his career, but his freedom, his kids, his family away just to give Pete the finger and tell him he won't be powerless? He'd rather have watched it ALL burn to the ground, than accept even the most minor capitulation.

Don cares about power; he cares about being in control of his own destiny. If you notice in the episode before, there were all kind of allusions about destiny (Petes girlfriend talks about how sales people need to take their sales from the hands of others and they aren't really in control). The episodes thus far have all been about power and power plays; Peggy attempting to get her idea passed Lou and Lou regecting a good idea just to stake out his territory. Or Cutler vs Roger, or even how Cutler promoted Joan so he could gain allies. Power plays.

It's not about money; it's about power. And Don agreed to essentially go from a very strong position, to a weak one where he has to be the one grovelling before a hack like Lou. Don agreed to give up ALL of his power; the few things that allow him to have people grovel, all for what? Control? What control though? Lou is going to be in control.

You see why this doesn't make sense to me? I never once thought it was about money; Don's turned down millions before, and gambled millions on ridiculous risk. He's always not understood money, or how people worry over it (And two people have died due to it). Everything I didn't understand from the board meeting was about how much power Don just frittered away so meekly. It was just such a 180; and yes, some of it I agree with sincere character growth--my problem was just the sheer amount. Like I said, had they asked for less capitulations, I could have seen it; but they essentially asked him to lube up and told him if he so much as winces they win.

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I understand what you're saying but you're comparing current Don to season 1 Don. The two are not even close to the same person. Don feels powerless right now, and has been acting like a shell of his former self for quite some time. This isn't a new development that came out of nowhere. He's been giving his work away to the agency by proxy, for free. He's been turning down sure things with incredibly sexy women who are throwing themselves at him. He's been sitting at home all day for over a year (it's been that long). He didn't even put up a fight with Megan. This man is a husk of his former self and is, in fact, feeling very powerless. Look at the scene with his daughter (episode 6?). The writing has been on the wall this entire season, this fits into the story they are telling perfectly.

This might be the one show I have ever watched in my entire life for this long and never once said "Really? Are they fucking kidding me?". They have stuck to their character development perfectly.

The power you're talking about that Don gave up is a rational, tangible power that is a byproduct of his narcissism and sense of self. Right now Don isn't actually giving up anything (in his mind). He's regaining his ability to assert his dominance. He can't do that from the confines of his home and it's killing him.

I'm gonna go ahead and say it. Unless they really fuck the pooch in the remaining 11 episodes (7/7 split season, I think) then this show could quite possibly share the throne with The Wire.

Don's capitulation, even if it is a bit much -- which I don't really think so but I can easily see why someone would, is quite a bit more subdued than the way Jimmy went insane in the last season for the sake of the story. It could even be something as simple as Don not taking his own advice. He tells Megan that you cannot afford to get desperate when you lose your confidence.

I mean people make giant fucking life altering mistakes sometimes. And you can't quite figure out why. Maybe we just watched Don completely fuck himself because he's just not thinking like himself.

It's already passed The Soprano's. And I thought the Sopranos was pretty good. It was mostly just the last 2 seasons of that show that shit it up. Show should have ended when he had his heart attack and went to heaven.

Khane_sl said:

I understand what you're saying but you're comparing current Don to season 1 Don. The two are not even close to the same person. Don feels powerless right now, and has been acting like a shell of his former self for quite some time. This isn't a new development that came out of nowhere. He's been giving his work away to the agency by proxy, for free. He's been turning down sure things with incredibly sexy women who are throwing themselves at him. He's been sitting at home all day for over a year (it's been that long). He didn't even put up a fight with Megan. This man is a husk of his former self and is, in fact, feeling very powerless. Look at the scene with his daughter (episode 6?). The writing has been on the wall this entire season, this fits into the story they are telling perfectly.

This might be the one show I have ever watched in my entire life for this long and never once said "Really? Are they fucking kidding me?". They have stuck to their character development perfectly.

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I think it's only been a few months, actually. In episode 2; Freddy said it's been 2 months and that was just past Christmas. They passed Valentines day in 3; but didn't pass some big events in the 69. I don't think it's been more than 4-6 months. Which is why this feels off to me (If I'm right, I could be wrong--Don said last year to Meagan but that's because it happened right around the Holidays last year). It doesn't feel like enough has happened to drive him to desperation, there's been no protracted struggle; he hasn't lose a series of "fights" with them. It feels like his desperation was rushed and kind of forced.

I get what you're saying, I'd agree if I felt like Don had been through enough to feel so down in the dumps. But how desperate he is just feels forced to me, given his character. Granted, he's resorted to quick desperation before, so maybe. And maybe my time is off (If it's been over a year it makes more sense)...But right now, he seemed like a guy that had been through a war and lost; but that doesn't feel like the reality of it. It just seems like they made him fall to pieces for the story.

Meh, I can see what you're saying but some of it feels rushed for story purposes.

All of those reasons are why the first thing that occurred to me is "Don has some kind of play here." Like, he knows something they don't. The way this show goes I really doubt it.

Lithose_sl said:

I think it's only been a few months, actually. In episode 2; Freddy said it's been 2 months and that was just past Christmas. They passed Valentines day in 3; but didn't pass some big events in the 69. I don't think it's been more than 4-6 months. Which is why this feels off to me (If I'm right, I could be wrong--Don said last year to Meagan but that's because it happened right around the Holidays last year). It doesn't feel like enough has happened to drive him to desperation, there's been no protracted struggle; he hasn't lose a series of "fights" with them. It feels like his desperation was rushed and kind of forced.

I get what you're saying, I'd agree if I felt like Don had been through enough to feel so down in the dumps. But how desperate he is just feels forced to me, given his character. Granted, he's resorted to quick desperation before, so maybe. And maybe my time is off (If it's been over a year it makes more sense)...But right now, he seemed like a guy that had been through a war and lost; but that doesn't feel like the reality of it. It just seems like they made him fall to pieces for the story.

Meh, I can see what you're saying but some of it feels rushed for story purposes.

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In the last episode Megan said she was out in California alone for over a year. I'm not quite sure but I do think it's been over a year. I think Joan and some of the other co-workers said a year too when he came into the office.

I hope the surgeon's wife arc wasn't some kind of foreshadowing. You know how he tried to do the controlling sadist thing with her and when she cut him off, he begged her to take him back?

Khane_sl said:

In the last episode Megan said she was out in California alone for over a year. I'm not quite sure but I do think it's been over a year. I think Joan and some of the other co-workers said a year too when he came into the office.

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It hasn't. Last season left off in November, this one picked up in January and we are now in March.

Yeah it's only been a few months which is why it's odd how quickly the moved on. They act like dons been gone forever when really it's only been a somewhat short time

I don't find it odd at all that some his coworkers would have moved on so quickly. He was one less epicenter of power and influence to contend with in an office that had morphed into a virtual hydra. His brilliance was undeniable and calling it into question just to advance their own views was always a taxing affair, one that many of them aren't suited for.

I could have sworn there was mention of it being a year or more. I'll have to go back and re-watch the scenes in question.

They've gone from 1960-1969 in seven seasons, they had to skip a couple years somewhere.

Stipulations aren't some fucked up passive agressive trap. SC&P would have a lot to lose if Draper, even money dry as fuck, went for another ad agency (as Rodger cleverly stated). Just imagine your company's flagship going full competition against you. Stipulations are there to keep him on the short leash since they understand Draper badly wants back (most likely to stay away from Megan's life, in a trademark Don Draper fucked up way to stay away from anything). I don't really know what to get from Rodger "late" showing. Was it to put Don down ? Or was it just because he's Rodger fucking Sterling, not giving a flying fuck about office hours ?

Peggy is slowly turning into a Prozac ad, Pete is LA'ing life, Ken is losing an eye upon nothing, Harry doesn't give a flying fuck anymore since he knows he's being underpaid and shit upon (lol @ tv spots being the underdog in 1969) and Joan is joaning her way to the top. Writing has gone min wage. Only nice thing was Betty going ultra mad because Bobby "ruined the day" because she's upset her day's climax with his son was to eat that sandwich. Haha.

I'm pretty sure Don has a plan. Not a criminal mastermind-like plan. But I'm convinced LA will see him much.