Mad Men

I don't think Peggy wanted to emasculate Don, I just don't think she knew how to really approach that situation and she tried to treat Don as she would any other subordinate. Was that a mistake? Of course it could be handled better, but in situations like that it could ALWAYS have been handled better, given time and hindsight. I really don't think that is on Peggy, I think they put her in an awkward position and she did her best to make it work, and it would have been challenging for anyone. Like Joan said, they didn't even think about it. "They" being the partners. They don't care enough to set Don up to succeed or really about Peggy at all. A large part of her bitterness comes from the breakup with Ted, but I imagine a large part of that comes from being the heir apparent and being passed over for fucking Lou of all people. But I've had enough of bitter Peggy and am ready to see her and Don side by side again.

I will just have to rewatch the last season, I guess. For some reason I have the impression that Don was coasting, but the only two examples I can think of are the mop n glo commercial (whatever it was) where he took credit for Peggy's idea and the meltdown at Hershey's. Maybe I am just not remembering accurately.

I think it is hilarious that many of us work in offices all day then go home and watch Mad Men and critique Peggy's management style.

Lithose_sl said:

I'm annoyed at the writers for what they are doing to Peggy; she's always been a little bitchy, and tyrannical (When she's gotten power). But never stupid and petty. She's just become comically petty and naive now, and it's exhausting to watch. The whole power play for having Don report to her office and grouping him with the junior copy writer was just something a 5 year old would have thought was clever--it's something worthy of a mediocre Machiavelli-esqe mustache twisting character like Cutler; not Peggy.

And then Roger's daughter. "Just like how you were always at work dad? Waa waa...."....Why didn't Roger bring up the fact that his work allowed a full time stay at home parent? And provided for her. There is NO comparison between what he did and what she is doing; because while what he did might have been shitty, it still left a parent to take care of her AND provided that parent with the means to provide. With her gone, the father will need to work and the kid is going to be raised by a damn maid.

Argh. This episode was full of petty idiots that somehow didn't get told ANYTHING and it was just infuriating. The only one who got "told" was Don, and while I like Freddy snapping Don out of his tail spin, the fact is, Don HAD reason to be fucking depressed. The office IS actually trying to humiliate him, and it's complete shit. (Freddy's advice was still good, but god damn, Don was the least douchey person this episode aside from Ginsberg.)

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For Roger I actually find that to be better writing. There are so many times in life with intimates where you could say all SORTS of shit, but you don't. It's only when you have the leisure to write a script/story that you can set up the perfect conversations. It's mostly a matter of context though. In a less well written show I 100% agree with you, it would be lazy. In this show they're giving the audience a role. We yell at the screen, "C'mon Roger! Stick up for yourself!" She's hitting him with every personal insecurity and regret that he has, the way that only adult family can. It's self absorbed bullshit to us but she'sreallyhurting him. All of his bohemian scenes, and the sacred water in a jar scene, have set up his reaction to his brat of a daughter to be completely natural.

But that's his daughter, man. He told his wife on the car ride over how serene and cruel she was being. Rogers not the sort to slap her down. Even when he's right.

For Peggy I do agree a little bit more. Not about hatching machiavllian plots to use Don as a tool in office politics. But she's had months to go over this in her mind and plan for it. The position she holds has been very nearly the sole focus of her life. So watching her handle it quite that poorly, even while understandable, seems to be a bit below what we've consistently seen as Peggys capability.

Maybe she's just raggin this week.

HO HO HO HO HO


Life is full of petty idiots that don't get told anything far more often than it's not.

poor roger, his daughter is lost to hippies

i'm sure this season is great for introspection and deep shit but goddamn i hate seeing Don the pussy slayer turned into a little bitch

for anyone else who was confused as to why Don started slurring insults at the computer guy at the end, I read a nice summary of what that was all about. Basically Don views the guy as the snake in the garden of Eden. He wants to snag his business, sees it as the future and this guy is just starting out in a booming new industry that has no advertising footprint at all. Temptation. But if Don does anything to try and get this business, he will have "sinned", breaking his contract/promise. So in his drunken state he rambles on about how he sees through the salesman, that he is the devil who is tempting him into sin.

spronk_sl said:

for anyone else who was confused as to why Don started slurring insults at the computer guy at the end, I read a nice summary of what that was all about. Basically Don views the guy as the snake in the garden of Eden. He wants to snag his business, sees it as the future and this guy is just starting out in a booming new industry that has no advertising footprint at all. Temptation. But if Don does anything to try and get this business, he will have "sinned", breaking his contract/promise. So in his drunken state he rambles on about how he sees through the salesman, that he is the devil who is tempting him into sin.

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While drunk at the office, one of the explicit no-no's he was given.

Heylel_sl said:

He's got rules to follow, and one of them is no meeting with clients alone. Bringing Bert that potential account made it look like he was bending the rules.

I'm actually not sure why Bert is being so hard on Don considering he's usually all about the money. It's not like he actually does anything at SC&P himself. Ever.

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I think, in Bert's view, Don needs to be doing penance for his mistakes. The company has changed and Don needs to find his place within the new hierarchy rather than trying to force everything back the way it was. Don wasn't just trying to bring in new business because it was good for the company, but because he also saw it as a way to have his own account and to get out of working under Peggy. Bert saw through that, which to him means Don hasn't learned his lesson.

chaos_sl said:

I don't think Peggy wanted to emasculate Don, I just don't think she knew how to really approach that situation and she tried to treat Don as she would any other subordinate. Was that a mistake? Of course it could be handled better, but in situations like that it could ALWAYS have been handled better, given time and hindsight. I really don't think that is on Peggy, I think they put her in an awkward position and she did her best to make it work, and it would have been challenging for anyone.

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When you think about it, this is really the first time Peggy has been operating without guidance. For so long, she had Don to mentor her, and as soon as she went over to CGC, she was taken under Ted's wing. She's always had someone she can work her problems out with, but now Ted is in California and Don is on probation - and she certainly couldn't go admit to Lou that she needed help after he gave her that vote of confidence (which, I think, was intentional on Lou's part). I don't think Peggy was trying to belittle or antagonize Don, but this is a completely new dynamic to their relationship. And basically, she handled the situation the only way she knew how - by emulating her mentor.

Slaythe_sl said:

Don isn't Freddy, he isn't expendable. Yeah, the Hershey's thing was inappropriate but I have a hard time seeing the partners of this firm actually coming to the conclusion they did. Don built the SC side of the firm. He's a partner too. He just did Ted a huge favor. Roger is his best friend. Joan should be on his side too. Just unrealistic.

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I think that this is part of the point; it shows that this office isn't run by decent human beings, they don't care about Don on a personal level and never had despite whatever he has done for them. It's all about the bottom line and what this or that person can do to benefit the partners and the company (the circumstances of Joan's partnership for example). They resent Don for the authority he wielded in the past and were content with how things were going without him so they would generally be pleased to see him break down so they can steal his shares as per the clause in his new agreement; they have no interest in reforming him and building an asset at this point. Lou would have to screw up catastrophically for that to change.

What keeps being reinforced for me while watching Don drift through his days is that we are our own Jailors and worst enemies, if he could just drop his pride and attachments to the company he could gtfo of New York and be happy with his wife or something else but then we wouldn't have a show I suppose. Also to hell with half seasons.

The bottom line is that SC&P is a finite pie, and they've divvied up Don's slice in his absence. No one wants to give anything back. It's not personal against Don, it's the fact that his very presence upsets the status quo. SC&P is fat and happy. They're doing so-so work, but getting rich off coasting and are worried about doing anything to risk that. Joan, in particular, has really benefited from Don's absence and is clawing her way into a position of importance.

Slaythe_sl said:

She was going to walk into Don's office and then intentionally decided to call the meeting in her's. That was a jab at Don and nothing else and it ties directly to her personal feelings for him right now.

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Yeah I don't think so. She treated him just the same as she would have any other person on her team. And really, that isn't exactly wrong when it comes to management. Don just wasn't aware of what exactly the deal he made was and where he ranks now. Don is her subordinate now.

Yeah, as others have said, Peggy's choice was a conscious one. She could have walked into Don's office and asked him to go along with it and toe the line for her (You know, sat down and talked to him). Is that how you handle normal subordinates?No.ButDon is *not* a normal subordinate; he still has a partnership, and he was her former boss. You don't treat him like a junior copywriter just for a power play; that's just terrible office politics--especially considering in some ways he still outranks her, so it's not like he's not a threat to her in the future or even now (As Don clearly displayed; he knows not doing work is not a "rule breaker"--so he can fuck Peggy by soaking up man/team hours and contributing nothing.)

I guess it really comes down to how you percieve her actions. If it was a case of inexperience in office politic like Chaos said? Then what Peggy did was just not thoughtful. If it's how I interpreted it; a conscious decision to send a message? Then Peggy is just petty, and well, stupid. I lean toward the latter only because, as Gask said, you could tell her first instinct was to handle it with more tact, but she stopped herself. (And this has always been Peggy's and really all the "underlings" problems--it's all plots within plots for them. But as Joan said, the higher ups aren't plotting, they just don't care.)

Anyway; as for Burt? I think it's pretty obvious he resented being marginalized. They made a point of it the last two seasons to show him not being invited to meetings and essentially being ignored. He probably believes (And probably correctly) a big portion of that was Don's presence. And he wants to make Don eat some humble pie. (Which again, is why I don't know why Don is playing ball. They are all obviously wanting to take a piece of him, but he seems hell bent on taking it, rather than giving it.)

slaythe_sl said:

Yeah, the Hershey's thing was inappropriate but I have a hard time seeing the partners of this firm actually coming to the conclusion they did.

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Yeah, remember Roger with Suzuki? How he essentially told them to fuck off for WW2? There wasn't a peep. And Don had to go in and sabotage the bidding process so their competitor wouldn't get a leg up when they were down. And unlike Hersey's, the company at that time was in an incredibly weak position--so Roger's fuck up was a lot more severe.

Some of it does feel like drama for drama's sake; especially their extreme reactions after "caging" Don again. This just seems like a poorly written attempt to get the main character to the lowest point before the final act; and this show's never really done that before.

However, the other part of it is what's been said earlier. Don wielded a huge amount of power; the others hated the risks he took (Even if he always came out on top)--they'd rather a weaker company but them having more say, than a stronger one but them being at his whims (And subject to his risk taking). So Hersey's was just an excuse to really go after him. Really, you could probably link it all back to the Cigarette letter; and then the merger and then the IPO drop due to Jaguar. In the end ALL these decisions worked out for the better (Except maybe the letter)--but if you notice, the common theme was them all being royally pissed off Don was making choices without their input. And once they got big enough to coast? Those risks became less and less acceptable. Don is a driving force; he's good when you're growing, but you tend to cull them when you're on top. (Essentially the company became Mccan Erikson; a fat, bloated sausage factory.)

I think that's where most of this is coming from (But the extremes of it? Treating Don like trash even after he agreed to be shackled under their control? That's just bad drama, it feels like).

chaos_sl said:

Yeah I don't think so. She treated him just the same as she would have any other person on her team. And really, that isn't exactly wrong when it comes to management. Don just wasn't aware of what exactly the deal he made was and where he ranks now. Don is her subordinate now.

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He's not though. He's her subordinateon this project. He's still a partner; and he still outranks her in the office (Which is why he could blow her off.) I mean, like you said, we all work in offices--I've been project lead numerous times and have had to deal with my technical superiors (People with "executive" positions over me--like the boss's son) in a way where I need to dole out work BUT still handle them delicately enough that they don't make my life a living hell (And one way to do that, is not "summon them" to my office). There is a certain decorum to those situations; the way Peggy handled it was not it. Heck, watch Season 1/2--when Roger needed to tell Don tough news, he usually went to Don's office--the few times he asked Don to come to his office was ONLY to give him good news--and it was never with a bunch of juniors (Even though Roger was clearly Don's boss.)

Now, she might have done it out of just inexperience, I agree. But I think it was more of a little plan she had to try and pull a power play. It might end up working out for her, too--because Don's obviously more interested in a bigger goal than blowing up Peggy.

She totally was making a move. From having her secretary get him to fixing herself a little drink to congratulating them for being on the project. She handled it poorly. That said there was no way it was going to go good. But a part of her relished in getting to have don work for her.

Slaythe_sl said:

She was going to walk into Don's office and then intentionally decided to call the meeting in her's. That was a jab at Don and nothing else and it ties directly to her personal feelings for him right now.

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Which, you have to admit, is very Don. How many times have we seen him refuse to go to a meeting in someone else's office? His standoff with Ted last season immediately comes to mind. I could be remembering wrong, but I could swear he even did it to Peggy once after she got her own office.

Heylel_sl said:

The bottom line is that SC&P is a finite pie, and they've divvied up Don's slice in his absence. No one wants to give anything back. It's not personal against Don, it's the fact that his very presence upsets the status quo. SC&P is fat and happy. They're doing so-so work, but getting rich off coasting and are worried about doing anything to risk that. Joan, in particular, has really benefited from Don's absence and is clawing her way into a position of importance.

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It's worth remembering that partnership has usually only come in the wake of a massive event. Don gets his after Roger nearly dies from a heart attack. Lane's comes when he helps orchestrate the demise of Sterling Cooper so they can retain their independence. Hell, even Joan's tiny sliver signaled a massive shift in the firm. Basically, partnerships are usually only given when the company is at a turning point.

Don, for all intents and purposes, lost his partnership. He may still have been on the payroll during his absence, but he no longer had any say in the day-to-day operations of the company. The void his leave created was quickly divided up among the remaining partners, and since it's been smooth sailing, they see no reason to relinquish the additional power they have obtained, particularly since Don always had a lot more control than his share allowed for.

Peggy could've screwed Don over once she found out about the stipulations. Instead she decided to handle the problem herself. Back in 1969 having a female in charge of anything was really rare, it can't be easy for her.

So it might work out.

Lithose_sl said:

He's not though. He's her subordinateon this project. He's still a partner; and he still outranks her in the office (Which is why he could blow her off.) I mean, like you said, we all work in offices--I've been project lead numerous times and have had to deal with my technical superiors (People with "executive" positions over me--like the boss's son) in a way where I need to dole out work BUT still handle them delicately enough that they don't make my life a living hell (And one way to do that, is not "summon them" to my office). There is a certain decorum to those situations; the way Peggy handled it was not it. Heck, watch Season 1/2--when Roger needed to tell Don tough news, he usually went to Don's office--the few times he asked Don to come to his office was ONLY to give him good news--and it was never with a bunch of juniors (Even though Roger was clearly Don's boss.)

Now, she might have done it out of just inexperience, I agree. But I think it was more of a little plan she had to try and pull a power play. It might end up working out for her, too--because Don's obviously more interested in a bigger goal than blowing up Peggy.

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Even if only on this project, he still reports to her, she still has to sign off on his work, he's no different than whatever that goofy looking guy's name is that she pulled. I have never been project lead in a situation like this, I imagine I would have handled it differently at the start, but my overall strategy would have been the same. I would have treated them equally, I would have called the meeting in my office, I would have set the expectations clearly. Obviously Peggy doesn't have experience in this kind of a team structure, there isn't really a similar situation except maybe Joan, and even she goes to Ken's office, not the other way around. I really don't think it was a power play. Power over what? Some drunk who already fucked up his reputation and is about 5 seconds away from self-destructing his career? If she was going for a power play that wouldn't make sense. At the end of this I think they are going to renew their professional bond over what a huge douchebag Lou is.

Don is where he is because A. he fucked up hugely and B. he CHOSE to be there. If he made a bad or ill-informed choice that is on him. But he chose to be the new copywriter for SC&P.

chaos_sl said:

...he's no different than whatever that goofy looking guy's name is... but my overall strategy would have been the same.

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You would have treated someone who was your mentor, was there for you with inspiration and advice after you gave up your first born, who got you your break in the industry and who is still technically your boss like she did? I hope not because that is pretty cold and foolish. In a perfect world people can put aside their histories and self perceptions and focus on the task at hand and perhaps some segments of various industries are like that but they are a minority compared to many office environments. Aside from that I agree that there is no power play on her part, only a petty power trip; she enjoys being able to talk down to Don because of the wrongs that she perceives were done to her relationship with Ted. She could have had the tact to approach Don, like she was about to, like a decent and sensible person but she chose to be domineering and assert her petty, ineffectual and temporary authority over him instead. She wasn't even really trying to get a reaction out of him as she doesn't know the terms of his continued employment, only that hes been humbled for the time being, which makes her actions doubly foolish.

Also Don did screw up but his only fault was in doing it publicly; Cooper sits in his office all day and flexes his toes, Roger drinks and loses accounts, merger guy is a prick who focuses on the wrong things while blaming other for his lack of understanding... the only partners who do real work there at the moment are Pete and Joan. Ted's job is to stay away from Peggy at the moment and Don gets to redefine himself... again. At this point I think I would actually enjoy watching Don rise to the occasion, get one up on everyone and then ride off into the sunset to end the show.