Making a Murderer (Netflix) - New info

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Khane

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I feel that the disconnect here between the people who believe he did it vs the people who believe he's innocent is this: It's too much to handle when thinking about the alternative, that he didn't do it and that there are real life movie villains acting as law enforcement.

It makes some people too uncomfortable to think what had to have happened for him to truly have been framed. Essentially what SAs lawyer said in the last episode.
 
Slaythe

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Cad, are you asking us to provide enough details to find himlegallyguilty? Because I'm not sure that's possible. But there's certainly enough evidence, reasonable doubt or not, to speculate on his involvement:

Avery's DNA on the hood latch of the Rav 4

Suspicious calls to TH's cell phone attempting to conceal his identity

Appointment with TH made with someone else's name

Specific portions of BD's confession matching what evidence does exist

Bullet in garage fired by same model gun SA confirmed to own

Body remains on Avery property

Car on Avery property


Now a lot of these you can explain away and there's still reasonable doubt, but that doesn't mean there iszeroevidence to exclude him as a suspect and even if he can't be proven guilty that doesn't mean he didn't actually kill her.

I brought up OJ before and I think it's a valid comparison. OJ was found innocent. Does that mean he didn't slit his wife's throat open and kill the man that was with her? Because he definitely did and I don't think I'm being irrational calling him a piece of shit because of it.

Cad you seem very focused on the legal language. SA being not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and him having killed that girl are not mutually exclusive.
 
Cad

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Slaythe_sl said:
I brought up OJ before and I think it's a valid comparison. OJ was found innocent. Does that mean he didn't slit his wife's throat open and kill the man that was with her? Because he definitely did and I don't think I'm being irrational calling him a piece of shit because of it.

Cad you seem very focused on the legal language. SA being not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and him having killed that girl are not mutually exclusive.
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I would've voted guilty for OJ. I didn't think there was any really compelling evidence the police framed him; while he certainly has motive and reason to kill the wife.

On the flip side, with Avery, the police have a lot of reason to try to frame him, and he has no real motive or reason to kill TH.

I agree (obviously) that the correct verdict can be not guilty and he actually still did it. What I don't agree with is that you can/should "believe" he did it, if you also believe that he should be found not guilty. If you "believe" he did it, to me that implies you don't have reasonable doubts. Otherwise, why would you believe it?
 
Slaythe

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Cad_sl said:
I would've voted guilty for OJ. I didn't think there was any really compelling evidence the police framed him; while he certainly has motive and reason to kill the wife.

On the flip side, with Avery, the police have a lot of reason to try to frame him, and he has no real motive or reason to kill TH.

I agree (obviously) that the correct verdict can be not guilty and he actually still did it. What I don't agree with is that you can/should "believe" he did it, if you also believe that he should be found not guilty. If you "believe" he did it, to me that implies you don't have reasonable doubts. Otherwise, why would you believe it?
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I know you're last paragraph there is targeted toward Noodle's specific comments but just to clear up my position, I don't believe he's guilty or innocent. I honestly don't know. I can understand why he would be the lead suspect and I definitely think there's a ton of reasonable doubt. My comments centered around providing a plausible case for him committing the act were brought up simply because I think the documentary fails to even acknowledge that as a possibility.
 
Ambiturner

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Don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but the "fake" name and phone number SA used was actually his sister's. His sister owned the car being sold, so it's really not strong evidence of anything
 
Slaythe

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Ambiturner_sl said:
Don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but the "fake" name and phone number SA used was actually his sister's. His sister owned the car being sold, so it's really not strong evidence of anything
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Right. Just like the DNA on the hood could have possibly come from cross contamination. In both cases there is enough reasonable doubt that neither would be solid pieces of evidence used to convict him, but both are still part of a general narrative that is plausible. Dude targets specific girl, schedules appointment using his sister's name. Attempts to contact her anonymously. There isn't any concrete, damning evidence with any of that but it also doesn't seem completely kosher either.
 
Khane

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Wait, did he contact her anonymously or did he contact her with his sister's information because it was his sister's car?
 
Cad

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Khane_sl said:
Wait, did he contact her anonymously or did he contact her with his sister's information because it was his sister's car?
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Sisters name and number. The "because" part I don't think anybody really knows. Prosecution said its to trick TH into coming. Defense said its because its the sister's car.
 
Slaythe

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Khane_sl said:
Wait, did he contact her anonymously or did he contact her with his sister's information because it was his sister's car?
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He called TH's cell phone 3 times and the two early calls used *67 to hide caller ID. The call which he didn't use that one came after she was supposedly at the property. Was Steven just a private dude that forgot to use that functionality one of the three times? Maybe. Again, there's nothing solid here linking him to any murder, but it's also not something you just go "oh he was a private guy and it was his sister's car so this checks out completely." He's a suspect and there is some questionable behavior surrounding how he got TH to the property and how he contacted her around the time of the murder. It is completely valid evidence to explore.
 
Khane

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I'm getting conflicting reports here. Are the phone records on the internet anywhere?
 
Cad

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Slaythe_sl said:
He called TH's cell phone 3 times and the two early calls used *67 to hide caller ID. The call which he didn't use that one came after she was supposedly at the property. Was Steven just a private dude that forgot to use that functionality one of the three times? Maybe. Again, there's nothing solid here linking him to any murder, but it's also not something you just go "oh he was a private guy and it was his sister's car so this checks out completely." He's a suspect and there is some questionable behavior surrounding how he got TH to the property and how he contacted her around the time of the murder. It is completely valid evidence to explore.
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Oh, yea its valid reason to explore. No doubt.

What gets me about these kind of crimes though is a lot of people say "well there's no plausible other scenario given the facts, so the most likely answer is the one proposed by the police" while the correct analysis is, "did the state prove this particular man did it in the particular way alleged beyond a reasonable doubt?" Not just, well nobody else was offered up and there no evidence he DIDN'T do it.. so...

It really is a contrary way of thinking to real-life problem solving, because nobody uses affirmative evidence standards like that. We jump to the most likely conclusion based on what we have. Which is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY WRONG for criminal prosecution.
 
Cad

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Khane_sl said:
I'm getting conflicting reports here. Are the phone records on the internet anywhere?
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When he called autotrader or whatever to get her to come, he used the sister's name/number. When she was late, he then called her from his own phone, but used *67. He also called her again from his own phone not using *67.
 
TJT

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Cad_sl said:
Sisters name and number. The "because" part I don't think anybody really knows. Prosecution said its to trick TH into coming. Defense said its because its the sister's car.
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Neither option here makes a lot of sense though. Trick her into coming to an appointment already made? It wasn't like she hadn't been to the property before.

Oh, so more like. Since the docket had sister on it. She wouldn't have answered if it was from him? I probably wouldn't of. But whatever.
 
Slaythe

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Misinformation re: Towel Incident - Misinformation re: *67 being used : MakingaMurderer

That reddit page links to a google drive doc of phone records which I can't get to while at work, but the pertinent info apparently is:

The calls were made from Avery's phone to Halbach's the afternoon of Oct. 31, Dohrwardt testified. The first two calls, one lasting only seven seconds and the other apparently hung up before it was answered, were placed around 2:30 p.m. used the blocking feature.
Halbach's phone records show she got a call from Avery at 4:35 p.m. that lasted 13 seconds but she couldn't tell if it was answered or went into voice mail, Schadrie said.
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Cad

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Slaythe_sl said:
Misinformation re: Towel Incident - Misinformation re: *67 being used : MakingaMurderer

That reddit page links to a google drive doc of phone records which I can't get to while at work, but the pertinent info apparently is:
Click to expand...
There's not much useful in the phone records because the phone numbers have been redacted, apparently.

rrr_img_122902.jpg
 
Adebisi

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Lol @ poofy leg irons.

I'm guessing they found no TH DNA on them either. Not even deep in the poofs?

Tsk tsk
 
Cad

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Barraco Bisi_sl said:
Lol @ poofy leg irons.

I'm guessing they found no TH DNA on them either. Not even deep in the poofs?

Tsk tsk
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Of course not. Because he can perfectly clean everything except those things found after the Manitowoc sherrifs dept helps with the search. What a co inky dink.
 
Khane

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Ok so both anonymously and with his sister's info. That actually makes sense. The guy is not very bright.
 
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