Making a Murderer (Netflix) - New info
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Nester
Vyemm Raider
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I think most of us are saying "guilty" as in "I think he did it" vs "I think he did it beyond a reasonable doubt"
Clearly not the technical use of the term in a legal sense.
The preponderance of the evidence points to guilt, but we do not use that low threshold to cage people for life.
Jive Turkey
Karen
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Jive Turkey
Karen
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A. Kayla came into the counseling office and asked to speak to a counselor... [snip] And she said she was there because she was feeling scared... [snip] She told us that she was scared, um, because her uncle, Steven Avery, had asked one of her cousins to help move a body.
Q. All right. What else, if anything, did she tell you about that?
A. She also said she was scared about going to the shop, um, and she, specifically, asked if blood can come up through concrete.
Q. Describe for us, if you will, Kayla's demeanor, her affect, during these revelations?
A. She -- She was scared.
Q. All right. Did she seem at all confused?
A. No.
Q. Was this the first time you, um, ever, uh, had contact with Kayla?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Um, your best estimate, approximately how long did this conversation take?
A. My best guess would be 15 or 20 minutes.
Q. All right. How was Kayla's demeanor at the conclusion of this discussion?
A. I think she still felt scared, but maybe a little bit more relieved.
Q. All right. Did she, at the end of the conversation, urn, seem confused by anything that she was telling you?
A. No.
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Thanks, let me know where you are confused and I'll clear it up. I was too tired posting todayHey Noodle.
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
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To me, personally, none of the evidence is conclusive or damning enough for me to even let myself have a gut feeling that Avery did it. Meaning, no way I could say 'yeah, I think he did it' because, as to the black and white engineer discussion I just don't have enough information. Inconclusive would be my gut. A lack of credible evidence pointing to him, and an abundance of evidence putting all the evidence in doubt means I wouldn't feel uncomfortable taking at face value to even let myself have a gut feeling.
It's like people think they have to pick between whether he did it or not. And sure, if you're having a great gossip session with some Manitwoc county ladies you'd probably best have an opinion if you want to be included in the conversation. But I'm pretty sure most reasonable people can understand how prone to trusting gut feelings the average person is, and how tainted the jury pool was, etc. I believe 'gut feelings' and people's love of hearing their own opinions said out-loud and reinforced is probably a big reason he's currently in jail.
So, put me firmly in the camp that I don't understand how people can say he should have legally been found not guilty, but they still believe he did it. That seems very contradictory to me and the continued trust and reliance on one's gut feeling and insistence on expressing it confuses and worries me because, again, in my experience most people can't trust their gut, especially when you've got local law enforcement and the DA's office reinforcing the most gut-wrenching story available even if it's not grounded in any shred of fact.
It's like people think they have to pick between whether he did it or not. And sure, if you're having a great gossip session with some Manitwoc county ladies you'd probably best have an opinion if you want to be included in the conversation. But I'm pretty sure most reasonable people can understand how prone to trusting gut feelings the average person is, and how tainted the jury pool was, etc. I believe 'gut feelings' and people's love of hearing their own opinions said out-loud and reinforced is probably a big reason he's currently in jail.
So, put me firmly in the camp that I don't understand how people can say he should have legally been found not guilty, but they still believe he did it. That seems very contradictory to me and the continued trust and reliance on one's gut feeling and insistence on expressing it confuses and worries me because, again, in my experience most people can't trust their gut, especially when you've got local law enforcement and the DA's office reinforcing the most gut-wrenching story available even if it's not grounded in any shred of fact.
Lanx
<Prior Amod>
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No one is pinning it on the ex-boyfriend? that whole "OMG SHE's missing, hey ex-boyfriend come over and help us out, oh, you can haxorz? go haxorz her password and we'll see her phone records like right away!!!"
The brother and ex-boyfriend did it, they had some weird ass redneck threesome that went horribly wrong and they decided the best person to pin the blame on, is the person they've been seeing on TV, Steven Avery.
The brother and ex-boyfriend did it, they had some weird ass redneck threesome that went horribly wrong and they decided the best person to pin the blame on, is the person they've been seeing on TV, Steven Avery.
Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
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Boyfriend and Steven's brother have been brought up alot.
Unfortunately, the police didn't even bother trying to gather evidence on either one of them so there's not much to go on other than they seem suspicious.
Unfortunately, the police didn't even bother trying to gather evidence on either one of them so there's not much to go on other than they seem suspicious.
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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What really bothered me about the ex boyfriend were his answers on the stand. A lot of "I don't know", "I don't remembrr", "maybe she was at the house at some time I can't remember" . I don't know if they ever really investigated him but the way he was answering questions was so goddamn weird to me.
The brother seemed off, but I didn't feel like he was the guy who did it. But then again, there are the feels.
The brother seemed off, but I didn't feel like he was the guy who did it. But then again, there are the feels.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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The only suspicious thing about the brother, to me, is how adamant he was about going after Avery and ignoring everything else that was going on. Which as an objective bystander seems really damn suspicious, however, I've never had a family member murdered.
EDIT: Wait, the brother also likely deleted all the voicemails too didn't he?
EDIT: Wait, the brother also likely deleted all the voicemails too didn't he?
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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The brother or maybe the boyfriend. I don't think it was proven the brother deleted them although he did admit he was accessing the mailbox.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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Nothing can be proven because as other people have mentioned the police never even bothered to investigate. It's pure conjecture which is why I said "likely" though I guess I'm falling into the same traps I've accused other people of falling into. This whole case is like a game of charades.
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The thing that got me is his behavior on the phone, at some point he was going on about I think posting bail and the father said something about using the Scrap Yard as an asset and Avery was like "you better", all of his phone calls were so self-serving. There was no moment of Martyrdom, no "I don't want you to worry about me, you can't afford to do this or that, you've got to take care of yourselves", no externalization or introspection about the effect this was having not just on him but everyone involved in him.
It's that type of personality I'm looking for to do this act, self-serving, consistently. Compound that with some the things his nephew said, what was it "inconsistent" ? --He didn't understand that word, but he managed to read an entire book by James Patterson and just came up with vivid accounts.
His own brother (who by the way seems to be of the whole family the most together) testifies against Avery, (never interviewed in the Documentary).
Then there's that younger cousin (not interviewed, granted her age) they called to testify, again vivid description of the conversation, and just completely recants.
His sister, she sounded like she knew he was capable of doing it, convinced even.
Some of those confession videos, they seem to skip around during the documentary, and you don't get everything in them or the entire context of some of the conversations. Separate none of this is convincingly strong, together it presents a much stronger picture.
What I felt like while watching the documentary is that something was intentionally omitted, data was being withheld, that would tie things together--I don't trust the documentary on its own. They talk about it from the beginning "Oh he's another Avery". What does that mean? Why did everyone in the community hate these people from the beginning. They never explain it, they just go "oh they grew up on a Scrap Yard, didn't go to public school" etc...
And yet not of the above is empirical proof
The defense paints a strong possibility of tampering, with the obvious motivations of Manitowoc County Sheriff department.
The fact that Dassey's own attorneys were outright in the prosecutions pocket.
It's that type of personality I'm looking for to do this act, self-serving, consistently. Compound that with some the things his nephew said, what was it "inconsistent" ? --He didn't understand that word, but he managed to read an entire book by James Patterson and just came up with vivid accounts.
His own brother (who by the way seems to be of the whole family the most together) testifies against Avery, (never interviewed in the Documentary).
Then there's that younger cousin (not interviewed, granted her age) they called to testify, again vivid description of the conversation, and just completely recants.
His sister, she sounded like she knew he was capable of doing it, convinced even.
Some of those confession videos, they seem to skip around during the documentary, and you don't get everything in them or the entire context of some of the conversations. Separate none of this is convincingly strong, together it presents a much stronger picture.
What I felt like while watching the documentary is that something was intentionally omitted, data was being withheld, that would tie things together--I don't trust the documentary on its own. They talk about it from the beginning "Oh he's another Avery". What does that mean? Why did everyone in the community hate these people from the beginning. They never explain it, they just go "oh they grew up on a Scrap Yard, didn't go to public school" etc...
And yet not of the above is empirical proof
The defense paints a strong possibility of tampering, with the obvious motivations of Manitowoc County Sheriff department.
The fact that Dassey's own attorneys were outright in the prosecutions pocket.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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I wonder what you would be like if you'd already spent 18 years behind bars for a crime you didn't commit.
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It's not proof he's guilty even slightly and arguments can be made to say X, Y, or Z reasons why he's that way. If you watch the recent interview with his Ex though.... Plus if that's what prison did to him, that could just mean the prison did "indeed make a murderer.
However, let me again emphasize to you, I'm not saying his disposition is evidence that can be used to convict him.
Chukzombi
Millie's Staff Member
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I dunno about self serving, Steven gave up the opportunity of a 36 million dollar payout for a few hundred thousand just for his defense fund. I wouldn't call that self serving, I would call that a desperate act of someone who would do anything he could to not go back in jail. Ya know a person like that would tend not to break too many laws. If you believe the prosecution he couldn't wait to go back in.
Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
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Really don't see what you're trying to put together here. He should have sacrificed himself and just rotted in prison if he's truly innocent or something? I'm sure you think you know how you would react in that position, but there'a no way you have the slightest clue. I'm guessing if you were at any of the infamous mass shootings you'd have shielded strangers/the kids or done some Batman shit.
The only convincing evidence about him as a person, is when he poured gasoline on a cat and threw it in a fire. That's some sociopathic behavior. Or maybe he's just a dumb hillbilly.
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To the contrary, I do have second hand relatable experience. However thats not a topic open to broach.
If you were to parse a person's personality as a circle you find that certain personalities are smaller/simpler than others, thus you could say they make quicker rotations. What I look for as a person when making judgment calls is patterns that let me know they're cycling through their ritual behavior. When the same thing keeps coming back again, I have an idea of what they're about. I'm not telling you I've established a scientific hypothesis on a forumula for cracking people, no I don't have one. Just my experience dealing with various peoples of varying personalities some more extereme and more frequently than others for my 28 years on the planet. Everyone has their own bull shit detector, mine reads that there's something with Steven Avery persona that was presented by the documentary.
I would further my point that if you decidely care so much, you should look for more sources of data on the case than just the documentary, like any good researcher would. A lot of people around this guys life seem to have strong opinions of their own on this guy, better than what I can surmise from recorded phone comversations hamd picked for a Netflix documentary, meant to evoke emotion.