Making a Murderer (Netflix) - New info

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Noodleface

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I'm not going to respond to the majority of Sylas' post - he seems way too hostile over us having a discussion about it.

1: TH was not killed in SA's garage, which was the DA's theory of the crime in both SAs and BDs trial, of which both were found guilty.
2: TH never stepped foot in SA's trailer (and thus was not attacked/raped/tortured there), which was the DA's theory of the crime in BDs trial alone, of which BD was found guilty.
How do we know this with 100% certainty? There's no physical proof, but we have one retarded guy saying it did happen that way - sometimes, anyways. Note: I don't believe that's how it happened either, but we really don't know how it actually happened. For all we know it could've happened in the parents trailer with every member of the avery family having sex on top of her charred remains.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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How do we know this with 100% certainty? There's no physical proof
That's how we know.

but we really don't know how it actually happened. For all we know it could've happened in the parents trailer with every member of the avery family having sex on top of her charred remains.
For all we know, you killed her, Noodle. Do you have any proof you didn't?

We allow claims with positive evidence. There simply isn't evidence for most of the shit the prosecution claimed. Their narrative falls apart when you examine the evidence, which the jury simply did not do.

And when the story the prosecution is telling you doesn't make sense or you have to go way outside of the evidence to make their story work, guess what? Reasonable doubt.

Thats why people are hostile, because people keep going "but what if Avery did X Y or Z that we also have no evidence for?" Sure. What if. Fine. But thats not how this works. You make a claim, bring evidence or shut the fuck up.
 

Noodleface

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I just think saying you have 100% certainty it didn't happen there isn't fair. We don't know where she died.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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I just think saying you have 100% certainty it didn't happen there isn't fair. We don't know where she died.
We can say with certainty a few places she didn't. The garage for one. The trailer for another. I might say it's something less than 100% certain because hey they could have thrown a tarp down and then magically burned that, etc... but 99%? I don't believe these hillbillies could shoot a woman in the head with a rifle and not leave DNA in that garage. So yea, we don't know where she died but we can say where she didn't.
 

popsicledeath

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One small point, I thought the vial of blood was evidence from the prior case so was being stored in the Clerk's office, not police station. Still likely the same people had access to it, though.
 

Tenks

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I'm still only on ep8 but did they ever fully address why the blood was clearly opened and the top tampered with?
 

Tenks

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Yeah I assumed not since ep8 was Avery being found guilty so I assumed the rest was more about Brenden
 

Jive Turkey

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Ok since it's clear about half of you fucks missed the point of the documentary, that the Manitowoc Sheriff's department completely rail-roaded this poor retard twice and that these 2 convictions were an absolute miscarriage of justice, and instead you'd rather be internet sleuths and turn this in to murder mystery who-dunnit, fine, let's do that. But first, let's establish what we know so new people don't keep coming in here throwing up stupid click bait articles from the disgraced DA/special prosecutor.

Caveats:
a) We will never know what happened to Theresa Halbach.
b) The police, in their zeal to rail road Steven Avery (and thus, Brendan Dassey) never performed a proper investigation or questioned or considered anyone else of the crime.
c) The Defense was not allowed to present any evidence or pursue any line of questioning that would point to anyone other than BD or SA.

Things we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, we are 100% certain that:

1: TH was not killed in SA's garage, which was the DA's theory of the crime in both SAs and BDs trial, of which both were found guilty.
2: TH never stepped foot in SA's trailer (and thus was not attacked/raped/tortured there), which was the DA's theory of the crime in BDs trial alone, of which BD was found guilty.

We know this to be true because of the police investigation. In perhaps the most egregious abuse of reasonable search and seizure laws in recent memory, the investigators had sole, complete unrestricted access to the property for a full 8 days, and in all of the searching of every square inch of both locations by multiple departments (one of which with a huge conflict of interest and every motivation to find evidence against SA), not a single scrap of evidence of her presence (DNA) was found in either location.

What was found is what you would expect of a very unhygienic retard, years of filth and clutter and DNA of all types, in the trailer, SAs and (what we assume) his girlfriends (We know it was not THs); in the garage, DNA from deer blood droppings from years of hunting.

Both locations go beyond "Hillbilly Dexter", it would require "Hillbilly God Mode" to extract the old deer blood, completely clean up all of THs blood and DNA, then go back and replace the old deer blood, old stains, etc in the garage. Likewise in the trailer but instead of deer blood the sweat and secretions from him and his girlfriend, on the pink fluffy handcuffs which were alleged to have been used to restrain TH, on the sheets, bedding, etc.

She was never in the Trailer or in the garage. You are a fucking retard if you suggest otherwise. Since we've turned this into a murder mystery game, any speculation suggesting a murder/rape/etc taking place in either of these locations will be immediately ridiculed and disqualified.

What we know beyond a reasonable doubt, and can be fairly certain of:
1: SAs blood was found in THs Rav4. The blood was found in locations you would use your right hand to touch (near the ignition switch, console, etc), although he had a cut on his Left Index Finger.
2: SAs fingerprints were never found in the car.
3: THs bones were found in a fire pit, in a 55 gallon barrel (burn barrel), and in a quarry outside of SAs property.
4: The Rav4 was eventually discovered hilariously "hidden" on SAs property in plain view from the road.
5: The Rav4 was seen leaving the property in the afternoon in question which matches the defenses timeline but not the prosecutions (her car left the property after 4pm before 5pm). The unrelated 3rd party eyewitness could not confirm who was driving.
6: Bone fragments from TH show bullet wounds from a .22 caliber rifle, the make/model of which were owned by both SA and BD's brother Bobby.
7: Bobby Dassey and his (now) step dad Scott Tadych both "went hunting" with said rifle and a bow at the time of THs arrival and saw her arrive. They were the only 2 people to testify that she went into his trailer (which we knew to be false). They gave a inaccurate timeline, wildly inaccurate description of THs clothing, and are the only people able to Alibi one another.
8: The SA blood vials locked in evidence at the police station were broken into and blood was extracted from them using a syringe, and it was not done by a technician performing routine, valid blood work.

Things we are not certain of but can speculate:
1: At some point, an unconscious or wounded TH was tossed into the back of her Rav4. Otherwise someone used her head as a paint brush to get her blood swipes there, which is kinda lolsy
2: 2 days before the Rav4 was "discovered", Detective Coulborn, a defendant in SAs 36mil lawsuit, found the Rav4 and called in a license plate check of the vehicle.
3: TH was late to her appointment to photograph SA's sisters van. He called her twice before she arrived and once after "she left." Keep in mind her car was spotted leaving by a completely unrelated third party witness at this time.

Things/Evidence we know to be false or contaminated and cannot be used to prop up a theory of the crime:
1: THs DNA on the bullet that magically appeared in the garage.
2: SAs DNA on the hoodlatch that was transplanted there by a shitty tech.
3: Magic key appearing in SAs trailer without SAs finger prints on them.
4: Magic bullet appearing in SAs garage halfway through the search despite the fact that she wasn't killed there.
5: Any evidence about the burn site being the location she was actually burned at, as basically they just dug shit up like dogs without any rhyme or reason.
6: Any and all "evidence" from BDs spoon fed "confessions." Really any sort of "insights" from a mind dumber than a German Shepard is suspect.


If you feel you have any evidence to add, please post it and how reliable you'd rate it: 100% Certain, fairly certain, speculative, false; and I will update this thread.


You are still free to speculate on how SA actually killed her, but don't embarrass yourself with already debunked shit from trash clickbait sites. Keep in mind, if you are going to speculate that he did it (which it's entirely possible that he did), that you are limited to a 1 hour 30 minute maximum timeline, from the time that she arrived around 3:15-3:30PM until the time that he started the fire around 5:00pm (if you are sticking with she was burned on his property in the fire pit). Also keep in mind that your theory must include someone driving her car off of his property (Perhaps SA does it, with her in the back) but you must also return SA back to his home to talk to his GF in prison around 4pm and then afterwards around 7pm (iirc, the times were "during" the rape/murder and after the burning).

A more plausible theory of SA as the killer is that he bonked her over the head, threw her in the back of the Rav4, drove to the Quarry, raped/killed/whatever there, and left her body there to return home and Alibi himself by talking to his GF in jail and then building a fire with his nephew. He could of returned at any point after that (from Nov 1- Nov 3) to burn the body at the Quarry and left it and the car there. And then it was discovered by police and the evidence was moved back to his place, blood taken from evidence and planted, etc in order to convict him of the crime that they suspected he was guilty of anyway.
Between this and your posts in the StarWars thread, it seems obvious you've got some anger issues. I mean, I couldn't imagine getting so bent out of shape about what other people are discussing (discussions I'm free not to participate in), that I would post like this. I also couldn't imagine reading it past the first paragraph, so that's where I stopped.
Do yourself a favour and fix whatever it is that's making you so miserable. Get in shape. Find a girlfriend. Forgive the kids for teasing you in highschool. Pay for a handjob. Whatever it takes, because if it hasn't leaked over into your real life yet, it will. And people are going to hate you.

But here's my counter post to your first paragraph (in the style of Sylas, of course):
Ok since it's clear about half of you fucks can't understand that you don't have to rigidly limit your discussion, that this documentary was made for entertainment (complete with cliffhanger endings) and is not the all-important document you seem to think it is, and instead you'd rather be pseudo-intellectuals since watching a movie is much easier than reading a book, and turn this into a poor man's university course, fine, let's do that:

It was fucked up how corrupt the system was. Remember when they planted all that evidence?...... now what?

The reason some of you halfwits (you're not all halfwits) keep arguing is because there's literally nothing left to discuss if you don't want to talk about potential guilt or innocence. You guys have literally not made a single interesting post that didn't just rehash what you saw in the documentary. You've added nothing new. But by all means, have your important discussion now. I'm interested in reading it
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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We can say with certainty a few places she didn't. The garage for one. The trailer for another. I might say it's something less than 100% certain because hey they could have thrown a tarp down and then magically burned that, etc... but 99%? I don't believe these hillbillies could shoot a woman in the head with a rifle and not leave DNA in that garage. So yea, we don't know where she died but we can say where she didn't.
So with the EDTA test, you'll rightfully claim that a absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but not when it comes to finding blood in the garage?

Honestly, I'll post a video of someone being shot in the head with a much more powerful gun than Avery's rifle if you want to see how much mess it doesn't really make. It's nothing like Scanners
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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So with the EDTA test, you'll rightfully claim that a absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but not when it comes to finding blood in the garage?
I don't know enough about the EDTA test, if they ran the test and it showed no EDTA but the blood in the vial did have EDTA, then I think it's reasonable to conclude the blood didn't come from that vial. On the other hand, that doesn't mean it wasn't planted or switched in evidence. Blood appearing in the car and the car key appearing and the magic bullet being found later are all highly suggestive of police tampering. How exactly they did it, I don't think we can narrow down. I hate to make a positive claim on what they did, when we have no idea. I know I distrust them, though.

Honestly, I'll post a video of someone being shot in the head with a much more powerful gun than Avery's rifle if you want to see how much mess it doesn't really make. It's nothing like Scanners
No need, I know what it looks like. And I know it depends on 100 factors such as angle of impact, how the person is sitting/laying/standing at the time they are hit, what is behind them, exactly which parts of the head are hit and whether they are still alive/pumping blood at the time of the hit, etc. Some head shots probably make a neat hole and the guy falls over (no exit wound) and very little blood due to the heart stopping. Others if they hit obliquely probably take off big chunks of skull and brain and spray that shit everywhere.
 

Tenks

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Since they couldn't really prove the rape angle at all did they ever really give a motive for the crime?
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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Since they couldn't really prove the rape angle at all did they ever really give a motive for the crime?
They stuck with the rape/unrequited affection angle. I think. It's hard to tell since their case is all over the place.
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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I don't know enough about the EDTA test, if they ran the test and it showed no EDTA but the blood in the vial did have EDTA, then I think it's reasonable to conclude the blood didn't come from that vial. On the other hand, that doesn't mean it wasn't planted or switched in evidence. Blood appearing in the car and the car key appearing and the magic bullet being found later are all highly suggestive of police tampering. How exactly they did it, I don't think we can narrow down. I hate to make a positive claim on what they did, when we have no idea. I know I distrust them, though.



No need, I know what it looks like. And I know it depends on 100 factors such as angle of impact, how the person is sitting/laying/standing at the time they are hit, what is behind them, exactly which parts of the head are hit and whether they are still alive/pumping blood at the time of the hit, etc. Some head shots probably make a neat hole and the guy falls over (no exit wound) and very little blood due to the heart stopping. Others if they hit obliquely probably take off big chunks of skull and brain and spray that shit everywhere.
Stop being so goddamn reasonable!
 

Tenks

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unrequited affection
It feels like if that was true they'd have family members who would say that he talked about her all the time. He seemed fairly committed to his fiance in the short phone clips we were given. But then again he also seemed to have a controlling and angry side in which we weren't really given a full angle of in the documentary. Like how they just kind of brushed aside the fact that this psycho ran a woman off the road and pointed a gun at her for spreading rumors -- like that is somehow a reasonable and normal response given the circumstances.
 

Brand

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I just think saying you have 100% certainty it didn't happen there isn't fair. We don't know where she died.
You seem like the perfect potential juror for Manitowoc county. Of course, we know that you would have convicted him the second they showed the picture of the giant pile of dirty laundry in his trailer!
 

Noodleface

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If you're going to quote me at least quote the whole thing - I said I believed he did it but don't see enough physical evidence to hand out a guilty verdict. I don't think there's anything wrong with that stance. The burden of proof is on the prosecution and to me they did not meet their obligations.
 

chaos

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I'm not going to respond to the majority of Sylas' post - he seems way too hostile over us having a discussion about it.



How do we know this with 100% certainty? There's no physical proof, but we have one retarded guy saying it did happen that way - sometimes, anyways. Note: I don't believe that's how it happened either, but we really don't know how it actually happened. For all we know it could've happened in the parents trailer with every member of the avery family having sex on top of her charred remains.
Sylas has anger issues for sure, but the point is pretty much accurate. Steve Avery is a goddamn retard, and the level of effort required to clean the garage alone would have been monumental. I've cleaned deer before, I know how messy that is, and that is in a controlled environment intended for that purpose. The prosecution contends that he slit this woman's throat in his nasty trailer after having her tied up and sexually assaulting her on the bed, then he cleaned that up so well that not a speck of her DNA can be found. No hair, no blood (even though her throat was slit on a goddamn mattress), nothing. Then they take her to the garage, and shoot her umptyfuckinjillion times or whatever stupid shit the interrogators got Dassey to say. And he did such a good job of cleaning the garage that he cleaned up every speck of her DNA and then went back and planted animal and his own DNA to throw the investigators off the track. But he left the bullet, because WAH WAAAAAAAAH.

Are these things possible? Sure. It's also possible that the world sits on the back of a turtle that we aren't sophisticated enough to view yet. Lots of things are possible. It is completely implausible though.