Malaysian Airlines 777 Shot Down (?)

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Silence_sl

shitlord
2,459
4
So when does Lumie/tad get in here saying this 'shoot-down' is actually a sanctioned and staged disposal of the plane from flight MH370?
It'd kind of interesting that people are still talking about MH370...I figured it would have fallen off of everyone's radar at this point.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
Has anyone check to see if 370 is IN benghazi?

I mean hide it in plain sight, that's the Hydra way.
 

jooka

marco esquandolas
<Bronze Donator>
15,143
6,539
Any one sentence reply needs to be removed along with everything not to do with this current situation.
 

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,233
290


Video of the communications intercepted by the Ukrainian Intelligence Service with translations.
Per Stratfor (Geopolitical analysis and consulting -Austin TX)
The Security Service of Ukraine, has intercepts (unconfirmed) of 2 phone calls indicating a pro-Russian rebel group based in Chernukhino, Luhansk province shot down the plane. One is between Igor Bezler described by the Ukrainian report as a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic and someone the Security Service of Ukraine identifies as Vasili Geranin, a colonel in the main intelligence department of Russia's armed force at 4:40 p.m. local time, 20 minutes after the plane crashed.The second 40 minutes later between 2 militants codenamed "Major" and "Greek".

Transcript: (-The translation from Ukrainian to English was made by Stratfor and is unofficial.)
First call
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It's smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.

Second call 40 minutes later
"Major": These are Chernukhin folks show down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
"Greek": Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first "200" (code word for dead person). We have found the first "200." A Civilian.
"Greek": Well, what do you have there?
"Major": In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
"Greek": Are many people there?
"Major": Holy sh-t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
"Greek": What kind of aircraft?
"Major": I haven't ascertained this. I haven't been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
"Greek": Is there anything left of the weapon?
"Major": Absolutely nothing
"Greek": Are there documents?
"Major": Yes
Damning stuff.
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
1,199
3
Pavlo Klimkin told the Guardian on Friday morning that the Ukrainian army has no such missiles in the area, and also insisted that none have been seized by separatist fighters in recent weeks. "We are absolutely sure and we checked yesterday that no missiles have been taken from the Ukrainian army," said Klimkin.

Separatist fighters in the region have shot down a number of Ukrainian planes and helicopters in recent days, and a video has surfaced from several days ago in which a well-known Kremlin cheerleader, Sergei Kurginyan, said after a visit to Donetsk in recent days that the rebels had seized a Ukrainian "Buk" missile system.

Kurginyan said in the video that specialists from Russia had travelled to the region to fix the missile system, "as a friendly gesture to a brotherly nation".

Additionally, a news item on Russian state television from late June announced that the rebels had taken control of a Ukrainian Buk system. However, Klimkin was adamant that this was not the case.

"Our military forces don't use any sort of anti-air missile in the region of anti-terror operation, so there could be no even theoretical possibility of taking this kind of missile," he told the Guardian.

...The Donetsk region contains a number of different militias whose actions are not always coordinated, and an aide to top commander Igor Strelkov told Associated Press on Thursday that his boss had not yet decided whether to allow investigators access to the site.
Malaysia Airlines crash: flight recorder found as anger at Russia mounts ??" live updates | World news | theguardian.com

... so we now have an alternate version of what happened, with this being a Russian Buk system sent across the border to Donetsk, and that the reports of rebels seizing control of a Ukrainian missile system were a cover to explain how the rebels suddenly had access to sophisticated anti-air capability.
 

Chris

Potato del Grande
19,685
-10,572
Really if this doesn't prompt maximum sanctions on Russia... they are killing our people now. We will see what our leaders are made of, they should be protecting us.
 

Namon

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,976
2,565
I see what your saying but right now, any military action should be completely on Europe to do since that is whose back yard this fight is in. The US should only have to be giving moral support at this time, and I definitely think they need more evidence that this was truly Russian in origin before throwing those accusations around.

I know I may be oversimplifying things here, but it's been what? 9 months since the unrest started? And from what I have gathered this all boils down to a dispute over who the country will overall align with: the EU or Russia. Yet, the EU seems to glance our way expectantly every time there needs to be a response from their side. I honestly agree with how the US has handling this so far, barring some of the theories that the CIA was behind starting the unrest in the first place. In fact, it would be nice if the sanctions did not originate from us as well. For once, I'd like to see parts of the rest of the world nut up and fight their own battles, instead of waiting on us to do something and then bitch about it afterwards. Or, another way to frame this, we have proven we don't have the capability to be altruistic in nature, and should back off from jumping into the fray to keep corporate interests humming without impediment.
 

Famm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
11,041
794
NATO without the US doesn't really have the power to force anything with Russia backing up the other side. We are the muscle, that's just the way it is. Not to mention this whole thing keeps going back to how few cards the west really holds. Who wants to shit on Russia's doorstep? The big three powers in NATO/EU are all beholden to the RF in some way. Britain is hooked on all the sleazy capital being pumped through their financial sector by Russian oligarchs. France has shown little incentive to halt their sale of modern naval warships to the RF. Germany for all its big talk is still looking at a long, cold, expensive winter if the RF can turn off the gas flowing through Ukraine. And now Russia has a mega energy deal with China to back them up if the EU energy sales need to get tweaked.

As far as the US, why do we care? What dog do we have in this fight? People killed on the plane? Sucks, but Ukraine is a civil war zone. State Department let everyone know the dangers of traveling there or flying over and we are done. There is literally nothing to be gained from pouring military into Ukraine. Just because we tried to help tilt Ukraine west doesn't mean we are willing to pour blood into the matter. I just don't see how that's a remotely reasonable stance for us.

I have to agree that at this point its not entirely unlikely that the Russian military will be the ones to stabilize eastern Ukraine, effectively or literally annexing them in the process. That doesn't mean this shit was on purpose, but it could be a very convenient accident for Putin. The cold war is already here, we seem to already be out of ideas with sanctions, a hot war with a global energy/military/nuclear superpower is nearly unthinkable. Russia may be destined to hammer the final nail into cold war 2.0 by turning east/west Ukraine into the new east/west Germany.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Just because we tried to help tilt Ukraine west doesn't mean we are willing to pour blood into the matter.
And it needs to be noted again that this is what caused all this in the first fucking place - US putting their hands where it doesn't belong, again, turning the situation into another US fuckup. You don't just covertly screw around with balances of power, especially when those balances upset another world hegemon. There are consequences to that. Russia is not fucking Venezuela.

Our politicians and statesmen (if you can call them that) are ridiculously retarded. How about another McCain or Sec of State photo op in Kiev again. Total fucking idiots.
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
1,199
3
NATO without the US doesn't really have the power to force anything with Russia backing up the other side. We are the muscle, that's just the way it is. Not to mention this whole thing keeps going back to how few cards the west really holds. Who wants to shit on Russia's doorstep? The big three powers in NATO/EU are all beholden to the RF in some way. Britain is hooked on all the sleazy capital being pumped through their financial sector by Russian oligarchs. France has shown little incentive to halt their sale of modern naval warships to the RF. Germany for all its big talk is still looking at a long, cold, expensive winter if the RF can turn off the gas flowing through Ukraine. And now Russia has a mega energy deal with China to back them up if the EU energy sales need to get tweaked.

As far as the US, why do we care? What dog do we have in this fight? People killed on the plane? Sucks, but Ukraine is a civil war zone. State Department let everyone know the dangers of traveling there or flying over and we are done. There is literally nothing to be gained from pouring military into Ukraine. Just because we tried to help tilt Ukraine west doesn't mean we are willing to pour blood into the matter. I just don't see how that's a remotely reasonable stance for us.

I have to agree that at this point its not entirely unlikely that the Russian military will be the ones to stabilize eastern Ukraine, effectively or literally annexing them in the process. That doesn't mean this shit was on purpose, but it could be a very convenient accident for Putin. The cold war is already here, we seem to already be out of ideas with sanctions, a hot war with a global energy/military/nuclear superpower is nearly unthinkable. Russia may be destined to hammer the final nail into cold war 2.0 by turning east/west Ukraine into the new east/west Germany.
You're right about the Brits, French and Germans all having their reasons not to rock the boat with Russia - the Germans especially have extensive economic ties with them beyond the gas supply.

The China gas deal won't help Russia for years, it's not like they've already begun pumping gas in the opposite direction. It's also on terms very favourable to China, and the Chinese won't be as easy for Putin to strong arm as the Europeans (China hasn't forgotten about the Amur Annexation).

Putin doesn't want to invade eastern Ukraine - else he would have already done so, before the Ukrainian military completed it's sluggish mobilisation - he wants to destabilise the country. It's going to be a guerrilla war with no end in sight, because the aim of one side is simply to keep fighting, unless the Ukrainians decide to simply pull out of eastern Ukraine altogether which they aren't going to do willingly.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,610
11,926
I just don't understand why planes kept flying over this area as other planes were shot down earlier.
General statement I'm seeing on this is, 3000-5000ft of operations, vs 33000+. Then operating speeds, and size of planes itself.
simply put. The colossal amount of stupidity required to shoot a civilian aircraft was unthinkable.

Which brings up the next question. Was it intentional?
 

Famm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
11,041
794
And it needs to be noted again that this is what caused all this in the first fucking place - US putting their hands where it doesn't belong, again, turning the situation into another US fuckup. You don't just covertly screw around with balances of power, especially when those balances upset another world hegemon. There are consequences to that. Russia is not fucking Venezuela.

Our politicians and statesmen (if you can call them that) are ridiculously retarded. How about another McCain or Sec of State photo op in Kiev again. Total fucking idiots.
And of course there's Biden/Kerry on the other side of the aisle:

Ukrainian Employer of Joe Biden's Son Hires a D.C. Lobbyist - TIME

And lest we forget this:

Listen: Victoria Nuland Says F*CK The E.U. in Leaked Phone Call - YouTube

Just because we know people will come in to turn your post partisan and/or deny US interests in the current state of Ukraine.
 

Lambourne

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,949
7,032
Dutch senator and his family among the dead. Haven't found English source yet but it's all over Dutch news atm.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,949
82,685
Looking less and less likely that US Citizens were aboard that flight (Or at least 23 of them). It certainly takes the pressure off the US to lead the retaliation.

It'll also be interesting to see whether the missile was from Russia or Ukraine. I actually believe the sloppiness of the Ukraine army would be more likely to give them that kind of weapon over Russia.
 

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,978
4,464
So america is now responsible for every misuse of american weapons. Got it. Ill let ISIS know its not their fault when they kill someone with their shiny new Abrams tanks
So when your local arms dealer sells an AR-15 to a felon, and that felon murders someone with it, is the arms dealer not at fault?

Same principle here, you, as a country, sell military grade weapons to civilians, you're up when they use them for war crimes.