Marriage and the Power of Divorce

9 and 14 is tough. Like, very tough. Depending on how close they are, the 9 year-old might be getting all of his cues from his older brother. And we all know how stubborn teenagers can be.

Make sure you always do something on their birthdays, like mail them something and give them a call. It doesn't matter if they answer or not, just leave them a voicemail. Other holidays too, like Christmas and even Father's Day. As the other posters said, just try to be as stand-up a guy as possible and they may start eventually quesrioning their mom's side of events.

So get the custody you want. 9 and 14 aren't making decisions like that.

Yeah living is one thing but he should get them on weekends or something

Cad_sl said:

Depending on the state 12 year olds can testify as to where they want to live. Doesn't mean it's determinative but the judge will listen.

If you don't have a child support order, why are you giving her money? Fucking support the kids, buy them clothes/insurance/etc. Don't just give the mom money.

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That is a big part of the rub. I pay her what I have approximated what the state would require me to pay her. My goal is to complete paying off the debt by the end of the year and then at that point offer to pay more for specific child expenses with conditions of more visitation and communication. That in a nut shell is my long term plan.

OMI43221_sl said:

That is a big part of the rub. I pay her what I have approximated what the state would require me to pay her. My goal is to complete paying off the debt by the end of the year and then at that point offer to pay more for specific child expenses with conditions of more visitation and communication. That in a nut shell is my long term plan.

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Honestly, it sounds like you do need to see a lawyer, have you?

My ex-brother-in-law is a complete moron. My family would try not to speak ill of my nephew's father in front of him, but I'm sure he's heard things, from many people because he's such a moron. He's been an absolutely shitty dad to my nephew, yet my nephew still would seek his approval and try to be in his life. The guy is a deadbeat who IS addicted to video games and porn, but despite all of that my nephew still wanted to bond with his father. So what I'm trying to say is how badly have you fucked up that your kids say they don't want to see you anymore? Your ex bad mouthing you in front of them isn't going to change their perspective from what they see when they spend time with you.

Edit - and I say WANTED to, because the most recent thing was this asshole told my nephew he wishes he never had him after my nephew was hurt because he took family pictures with his new family and didn't include him. This was after he did something else stupid, I can't remember what atm, which my nephew didn't talk to him for months and the ex-brother was constantly bugging him the whole time like, oh why aren't you talking to poor me? They made amends and then the I wish I never had you bomb was dropped. Oh yeah, this guy is on wife #4 btw. 4 wives in less than 20 years.

mures_sl said:

So what I'm trying to say is how badly have you fucked up that your kids say they don't want to see you anymore? Your ex bad mouthing you in front of them isn't going to change their perspective from what they see when they spend time with you.

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His kids sound normal. Your nephew does not. Like Cad said, teenagers are assholes even if they like you.

We just completed a short sale last year. The remaining debt I have is in credit cards that are in my name and not hers. So about the house. If I look back and try to figure out where I went wrong that is one key spot.

My wife pregnant with my 2nd child wanted to live in a better house a better neighborhood for our children. I can't blame her for wanting that.( We were already having problems before the second kid but I would say the hormonal issues became more drastic after the second birth.) She found the perfect place to raise kids I very vividly remember telling her that this is great but it's not really in our price range. She argued that it might not be currently but we would grow into it. I really should have stuck to my guns at that moment. She was making roughly twice what I made at the time. After the baby arrived. She asked if I would quite my job. She had done it for our first child. I had a job I liked a lot. I lived 2 minutes away from work. I had just made it into a manager position. She was right though, she made considerable more than me and it was what was best for the kids so I quit. Roughly a year later she quite her job told me that I wasn't doing a good job raising the kids.We hadn't discussed it at all previously. She just quite the job that was supporting our family approximately 18 months after moving into a house we never could afford.

OMI43221_sl said:

That is a big part of the rub. I pay her what I have approximated what the state would require me to pay her. My goal is to complete paying off the debt by the end of the year and then at that point offer to pay more for specific child expenses with conditions of more visitation and communication. That in a nut shell is my long term plan.

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Paying child support without a state-approved agreement for child support can backfire hard in my understanding (disclaimer: not a lawyer, just a divorced guy). As in, if she wants to be a cunt extraordinaire, she can say the money you've been paying her was for something unrelated and that you owe her back child support for however long you've been divorced. And if you have a bad day in court, that could fly.

If you haven't consulted a lawyer, I would and at least find out some facts about your exposure with your current agreement and your options to deal with her poisoning the well with your kids.

mures_sl said:

My ex-brother-in-law is a complete moron. My family would try not to speak ill of my nephew's father in front of him, but I'm sure he's heard things, from many people because he's such a moron. He's been an absolutely shitty dad to my nephew, yet my nephew still would seek his approval and try to be in his life. The guy is a deadbeat who IS addicted to video games and porn, but despite all of that my nephew still wanted to bond with his father. So what I'm trying to say is how badly have you fucked up that your kids say they don't want to see you anymore? Your ex bad mouthing you in front of them isn't going to change their perspective from what they see when they spend time with you.

Edit - and I say WANTED to, because the most recent thing was this asshole told my nephew he wishes he never had him after my nephew was hurt because he took family pictures with his new family and didn't include him. This was after he did something else stupid, I can't remember what atm, which my nephew didn't talk to him for months and the ex-brother was constantly bugging him the whole time like, oh why aren't you talking to poor me? They made amends and then the I wish I never had you bomb was dropped. Oh yeah, this guy is on wife #4 btw. 4 wives in less than 20 years.

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I can appreciate that. Honestly if I was on the other side reading this story I would think the same thing as well. All I can say is that I was a very involved father. I was my older sons soccer couch and den leader for cub scouts. My younger son I took to heart strings and baby story time. I finger painted with him and taught him to play tennis on our driveway. (When he was older)There are so many things I could put here.

There mother has them convinced I should be paying her enough money that she can be a full time stay at home mom. That I am a deadbeat because I'm not doing that. They think this is reasonable right now.

Haast_sl said:

Paying child support without a state-approved agreement for child support can backfire hard in my understanding (disclaimer: not a lawyer, just a divorced guy). As in, if she wants to be a cunt extraordinaire, she can say the money you've been paying her was for something unrelated and that you owe her back child support for however long you've been divorced. And if you have a bad day in court, that could fly.

If you haven't consulted a lawyer, I would and at least find out some facts about your exposure with your current agreement and your options to deal with her poisoning the well with your kids.

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This times infinity billion. You need to cover your ass legally before she fucks you in it.

Haast_sl said:

Paying child support without a state-approved agreement for child support can backfire hard in my understanding (disclaimer: not a lawyer, just a divorced guy). As in, if she wants to be a cunt extraordinaire, she can say the money you've been paying her was for something unrelated and that you owe her back child support for however long you've been divorced. And if you have a bad day in court, that could fly.

If you haven't consulted a lawyer, I would and at least find out some facts about your exposure with your current agreement and your options to deal with her poisoning the well with your kids.

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I have heard the same thing it's actually one of the reasons I have avoided going into court. A bad day in court and some judge could decide I owe back child support till the start of the divorce. If I lawyer up she will and I throw the dice. I know the odds are heavily in my favor but that doesn't mean their isn't risk their as well.

I just can't see the positive outcome I'm going to get going that route. Most likely the judge is going to order me to continue to pay what I am now. Then over the objection of my wife and two kids he is going to give me custody? He is going to force them to have visitation with me even though they say they don't want it.

And let's not forget the scene in court where my kids get put in a position where he has to tell a judge he doesn't want to stay with me. Yeah that won't be psychologically scarring. See right now I know they say these things cause they feel like it protects their mother. They don't really believe it. At least not deep down. I know why they say it and I remind them that I will always love them. They see I understand. But if they had to do it in a court in front of a judge.

I just can't picture a great outcome from going through the courts and plenty of bad can come from it. Maybe I'm being short sighted.

Then over the objection of my wife and two kids he is going to give me custody? He is going to force them to have visitation with me even though they say they don't want it.

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They're 9 and they're 14, they don't know what they want. I think you moving away from them was a mistake, and I think you have an opportunity to fix that. The things you said you did for your sons sounds a lot like the kinds of things my dad did for me, and even though I absolutely hated cub scouts and sometimes projected that hatred onto him, it was 100% the right thing for him to do because years later I've really come to appreciate my dad for everything he did for me and the amount of effort he made to be a large part of my life even though he would often work over 40 hours a week with lots of international business trips.

Kriptini_sl said:

They're 9 and they're 14, they don't know what they want. I think you moving away from them was a mistake, and I think you have an opportunity to fix that. The things you said you did for your sons sounds a lot like the kinds of things my dad did for me, and even though I absolutely hated cub scouts and sometimes projected that hatred onto him, it was 100% the right thing for him to do because years later I've really come to appreciate my dad for everything he did for me and the amount of effort he made to be a large part of my life even though he would often work over 40 hours a week with lots of international business trips.

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Honestly I couldn't find anything there that was close to what Im making now. Moving gave me the ability to pay the debt, to hopefully save some money in the future to help with their education. I hate what happened but I don't think it was a mistake. I could be there in this same position and looking at no way to help with their education.

Unless you're able to save up tens of thousands of dollars by the time they're 18, you're not going to be able to do much for their education. $11k just barely covers a full year's expenses at the cheapest public universities in California, and even if you have them do two years of community college you're looking at needing to provide $44k across the both of them. As much as I love my dad, he was not prepared for the vastly different price of tuition for college now than when he was in school, and my "college fund" - which would have been considered average back in the 90's - became a joke we often make fun of.

The alternative could have been that, maybe instead of going on those family vacations, all that money would have gone to my college fund, or maybe my dad would have gone on even more business trips, but how much time do you need to take away from making moments with your sons to cross the line between "father" and "investor?"

I don't care about having to pay off loans for years. Nothing can even come close to replacing the time I got to spend with my dad when I was younger.

Man sorry to hear all that. One thing I would consider is she could be a cunt now or she could be a cunt in 5 years time. If the judge ordered you to pay back child support wouldn't you want that to start sooner rather than later?

Yeah..I would talk to a lawyer, even if you don't go to court, you need to have this formalized. Don't assume she hasn't spoken to one, or isn't savvy about this and is waiting for the right time to come at you to get the most out of you. Even if you don't think she'd be like that, it might not be her--she could be getting advice from all kinds of sources. (But she does sound pretty horrific if you were a good father and she's pissing in your son's ear like that. People who use children to strike at their exes, well, I wouldn't put anything past them.)