Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Even while dating it was pretty common for me to not talk to my future wife for a few days. We'd generally go out one day on the weekday then spend most of Friday/Saturday together. We'd really not talk a whole lot outside of the time we spent together. So to a certain extent I agree with DT. If you're constantly talking/texting/being together just because the relationship is new then when she moves in and you're literally around each other 24/7 and she just naturally assumes the attention will remain the same thats a problem between the two partners having different expectations. Even now that we're married we don't really talk/text/email very much. Some people I know their wives call them like 3 times a day basically every day. I'd go mad if my wife was that desperate to talk about trivial bullshit.

DickTrickle_sl said:

If starting out in a relationship you begrudgingly spend every weekend with the new woman but in actuality, in a long term relationship, you want to have half or more of your weekends (or Saturdays or whatever) to yourself, then I don't see how anyone could be surprised that someone might not like that change. It's just a simple matter of compatibility at that point (and you of all people should understand that reality). If the woman values being together constantly and the guy doesn't, what's the point of faking it for a few months if you actually do want an LTR? Why not find a woman that doesn't need all your time from the get go? Likewise if a woman only begrudgingly dresses sexy in the beginning but she doesn't like that doing that often, she's setting up her man for disappointment later. Find a man who doesn't need her dolled up all the time. It's a bait and switch. It feels like a lot of wasted effort if you want an LTR or a marriage especially.

Now, there's certainly situations when both people are, for example, spending a lot of time together in a mutualyl interested way and then someone decides they need more space eventually, but that's a lot different than knowingly doing shit you don't like just to get someone into a relationship.

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Oh have you found the silver bullet in knowing all that within 2 weeks? You should write a book.

That's the reason he said you must not date much because you're obviously clueless. It's not about begrudgingly doing shit you know you'll never want do. It's about making an effort to actually get to know someone and their friends so you can make an informed decision about whether or not it's going to work.

You know what happens when you automatically write someone off before giving them a chance? You get told you're afraid of commitment, stubborn or flat out impossible to please. And what happens when you do make the effort to at least give someone a chance? Morons like you call you out as being a self saboteur who only dates all the wrong people and that's obviously why you're still single. Gimme a break.

You seriously misinterpreted what Frenzied was saying.

I agree that pretending you are someone you aren't is ridiculous but that has to do with core beliefs and what you want out of life. Not paying extra attention to how you look or how receptive you are to new things in a new relationship. The latter is a natural course of action. Just like people trying to reinvent themselves after getting out of a long relationship, often mirroring what their ex partner wished they would have done while they were still together.

Khane_sl said:

You seriously misinterpreted what Frenzied was saying.

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Obviously this argument is going nowhere but I think you're reading a bit too much good faith in Frenzied's posts.

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

I was willing to sacrifice a Saturday playing Top Golf with her and her annoying friends

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Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

Make initial sacrifice doing the shit she wants to, being dragged out with her friends, etc.

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He's not talking about doing that to get to know her, he's talking about doing things he knows he is not interested in because he feels that's the game he has to play. Begrudingly. He even recognizes the reality of the situation that he puts himself in:

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

"They seem to thrive and *need* that "intoxicating" level of love, while guys are ok (and in my case prefer) the predictable routine that develops over time. This is why 75% of divorces are initiated by women-- "He just isn't the man I first met" being the #1 reason."

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So, again,and what my comment started out with, he shouldn't be surprised that they think he is less interested when he stops doing all that shit he was doing in the beginning. He feels wronged and that women are just super crazy but it's really as much of his own making as theirs. If anything, he should read your book, since you seem to have a much better handle on accepting the consequences of what you want.

He doesn't feel wronged DT. He feels like he's figured it out, can't give women what most women want, has accepted it, and just likes commenting on how absurd he feels dating is (and I agree with him)

And your quotes about being dragged out with her friends? Yea, that's what I call getting to know someone and giving someone the benefit of the doubt. The whole thing is a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Everyone does that, some of us are just more cynical (or rather truthful with ourselves) about what dating is all about. But yea DT... I'm sure if we asked your wife or gf or partner if you're the same exact person with them today as you were on your first date they'd say "definitely, hasn't changed how he is with me one bit". Uh huh.

You seem to think there is a surefire formula for finding compatibility. I'm telling you there isn't, some people are just far easier to please than others and that's all it is. But that doesn't stop those of us who have more... discerning tastes from at least trying. It's a cycle. Go on a string of dates with different types of women you think you're compatible with, find out you aren't, start broadening the scope thinking maybe your friends are right, you're just looking for the wrong type of woman, learn more about yourself in the process, finally become disillusioned with the entire process because you're starting to realize maybe it isn't a matter of changing your perspective or habits, but rather you just aren't cut out for what our society has determined is a normal relationship. Get tired of being single, re-evaluate, repeat.

I believe I understand exactly what Frenzied is saying... far better than you for sure. Because I've been living the same way for years now.

Why not just end it immediately if you know that every weekend she goes out and expects you to go out as well? I know I didn't initiate any more dates quite a few times because when we were out the girl was talking about how she loves to go out to bars every weekend. I know that isn't my thing so I didn't move it further. I don't mind going out to a bar or doing something like that every so often but it isn't my idea of a fun weekend. I eventually found a girl who hates being out in loud environments just as much as me. But if you're constantly attracted to these social butterfly girls you can't have it both ways where she is a social butterfly but doesn't expect her significant other to accompany her.

I disagree with that characterization. Frenzied has definitely, through the course of this thread, displayed himself as a noble martyr against the horribleness of the modern woman. His most recent posts sound more accepting of his fate, though.

I like the implications you make; it's funny that you frame it all as just having more discerning tastes (which I guess is technically true but is clearly meant in a superior way). It's just that some people go through the "finding/dating people, breaking up and learning more about yourself and what you want" loop and eventually do find what they want. But you actually have to learn from it in some way unless you want the loop to repeat exactly the same as before. Repeat the same actions and you'll get the same results (and yeah, it's not always an easy thing to parse, but it's hardly a complete mystery all the time). There are women I've been with in my past I couldn't imagine having ever been interested in, that I wouldn't even have an interest in talking to today, but I had to go through those experiences to understand that. However, at the age of 35, I finally found a woman I want to marry so I can break out of that loop now.

I do think my partner would agree I'm largely the same person without large changes they perceive to be negative (there are some big positive changes, though). Of course, it's only been 2.5 years, so there's still time for both of us to quit caring.

DickTrickle_sl said:

It's just that some people go through the "finding/dating people, breaking up and learning more about yourself and what you want" loop and eventually do find what they want. There are women I've been with in my past I couldn't imagine having ever been interested in, that I wouldn't even have an interest in talking to, but I had to go through those experiences to understand that. However, at the age of 35, I finally found a woman I want to marry so I can break out of that loop now.

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So you completely agree with me? What are you trying to say here?

So you do something sometimes that you're only mildly interested in just to spend some time with her? So what, big deal. That's dating/being in a relationship.

So you do something all the times that you're only mildly interested in just to spend some time with her? The pussy isn't that good, don't be afraid to be alone, end that shit, stop being emotionally co-dependent.


Same thing applies for women. It's a general rule rather than a specific one. Life is too short. There are other women out there that will suck yo dick.

Khane_sl said:

So you completely agree with me? What are you trying to say here?

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That, as I originally stated, Frenzied shouldn't act surprised that women accuse him of not caring because he stops caring as much -- which seems to happen a lot judging by his complaining. There's a lack of self-awareness of his role in the reaction from women. He doesn't appear to be evolving from his runs through the loop. He should stop dating women like that -- that's where he's not learning. He likes to pretend all women are the same so that he has no choice but the reality is it's just the women he goes after are the same. Not changing anything means you get the same results usually. The alternative is to accept his current situation, but if he really did then I don't think he would protest so much -- it'd just be the acceptable price of getting some regular pussy.

Tenks_sl said:

Why not just end it immediately if you know that every weekend she goes out and expects you to go out as well? I know I didn't initiate any more dates quite a few times because when we were out the girl was talking about how she loves to go out to bars every weekend. I know that isn't my thing so I didn't move it further. I don't mind going out to a bar or doing something like that every so often but it isn't my idea of a fun weekend. I eventually found a girl who hates being out in loud environments just as much as me. But if you're constantly attracted to these social butterfly girls you can't have it both ways where she is a social butterfly but doesn't expect her significant other to accompany her.

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Because that's only one facet of who they are. Maybe there are a ton of other things about them you connect with. Sometimes you know you have nothing in common with someone and feel no connection right away. Sometimes you feel an instant attraction to someone even though you know almost nothing about them. Basically, sometimes you're sure, sometimes you aren't.

DickTrickle_sl said:

That, as I originally stated, Frenzied shouldn't act surprised that women accuse him of not caring because he stops caring as much -- which seems to happen a lot judging by his complaining. He doesn't appear to be evolving from his runs through the loop. He should stop dating women like that -- that's where he's not learning. He likes to pretend all women are the same so that he has no choice but the reality is it's just the women he goes after are the same. Not changing anything means you get the same results usually. The alternative is to accept his current situation, but if he really did then I don't think he would protest so much -- it'd just be the acceptable price of getting some regular pussy.

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I feel like you're shifting the goal posts.

Khane_sl said:

I feel like you're shifting the goal posts.

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My post that started it: "You admit you stop caring about what she likes (and were essentially fraudulent in your interest initially) and say she's crazy and insecure for recognizing that. Makes sense."

I've expanded on the topic but I feel like my argument has stayed pretty true to that statement.

I think we're probably just going to go in circles on this, though.

Not really, you called him a fraud who has no right to be upset about how women react to not being the center of his universe initially. Then said "Oh I did the same thing when I was dating but because I don't use such harsh terms to describe it I'm a better person than you. Also, I'm about to get engaged so obviously I'm beating you"

I didn't do that when I was dating, though. Or, I should I say I didn't keep doing that for two decades. In other words, I eventually realized acting in ways that would get a girl interested but aren't really what I want or how I want to live gave me sub-optimal results so I changed my behavior to be more initially authentic.

He shouldn't be so upset when he played a role in creating that reaction. He shouldn't treat the person as being crazy because she actually realizes he doesn't care as much anymore (or isn't as willing to pretend to care as much). I don't see why this is such a horrible idea to accept. Just fucking accept a fair share of responsibility instead of acting like a goddamn victim.

Do you know what venting is?

Let me interpret for you. And Frenzied can correct me if I'm way off base. This is what he's saying:

"Listen, we're both older, we've both been at this a while and we both know how this works. I'm gonna treat you extra special and you're gonna make yourself extra pretty for me at first. Then eventually we're gonna fall into a routine. I'm totally cool with you wearing chucks instead of heels after a while, so I hope you're totally cool with me not treating you like a princess 100% of the time we're together. Let's be honest... I'm never gonna meet a princess, and you're never gonna meet a knight in shining armor"

And what he's saying is, he's ok with the evolution of the relationship, so why the fuck aren't the women he's dating? And there is a lot of truth to that. A LOT of women expect men to dote on them forever without putting any effort into being doting themselves. This happens a lot. It's why I've almost, but not quite, gotten married twice. Because when push came to shove they showed me they don't want an equal partnership, they want to be taken care of. Fuck that.

Thats why you should present yourself accurately from the get-go. I mean that is something I learned pretty early on. I never quite managed to make the sharp left from "Early infatuation" to "Routine consistency." So I completely abandoned trying to make that sharp left. I started out treating her like I was planning on always treating her. That way if she didn't like it then we both didn't waste our time.

If she's slacking off but doesn't like any of his slacking off (insert better word choice there), then yeah, fuck her. If ALL of Frenzied's relationships have objectively played out like that, then it is unfair and they should go fuck off. I really have to question, though, about the type of women he's going after if they'reallplaying out like that. I guess I just have a hard time believing that is the objective reality and not just from his perspective or that he's genuinely trying not to find princesses. And maybe it is my bias at work in finding that hard to believe because my experiences haven't played out like that -- I feel like princesses are either somewhat easy to identify and thus not chase after or don't strongly manifest if you never treat them like a princess (one reason I think you shouldn't start off treating a woman like one).

I don't know, good luck either way.

Tenks_sl said:

Thats why you should present yourself accurately from the get-go. I mean that is something I learned pretty early on. I never quite managed to make the sharp left from "Early infatuation" to "Routine consistency." So I completely abandoned trying to make that sharp left. I started out treating her like I was planning on always treating her. That way if she didn't like it then we both didn't waste our time.

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What you're saying is impossible unless you're a stone cold heartless bastard. The excitement of something new can take over in an instant. The only time this will work is if you aren't really all that interested to begin with. I don't care how "cool" you think you are (and I think I'm ice cold) I'm not a robot. If I meet someone I feel a connection with I'm going to naturally want to spend time with them. I'm going to make an effort to make them laugh, to entertain them, basically to be the traditional American version of an attractive, confident male. I can't help it. It happens without even trying. I'm a fucking flirt to begin with and when I meet someone I actually want it gets kicked into overdrive. And eventually that's going to give way to routine.

When I find a new restaurant I like I might eat there twice a week until it's old news, then it's maybe once a month. If I learn a new cooking technique I might use it 3 times a week until I've been there and done that. If I learn a new technology at work I might spend nights and weekends for a month tinkering with it until I'm bored. That's the way the world works.

You know why some people are successful? Because the version of themselves that doesn't care all that much (well that's not fair, more accurately the version of themselves that naturally makes their partner happy without even trying) is the version of themselves their partner likes. You didn't do anything extra special to "seal the lifetime deal" while you were dating. You got kinda lucky. That's real talk.