Murders and Shootings

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Charles_sl

shitlord
228
0
I don't know what the fuck malnutrition and dehydration have to do with this thread but that comment is just plain retarded...



This is a terrible event that happened today. It is part gun control and it's also part "crazy people being crazy" as is popularly said. How do we fix it?

Well to start there needs to be more awareness and better treatment for mental health (and health in general) in our country. I said it many times today in discussions that I've had over this, I feel absolutely certain that I would know if my son could possibly kill 20 young children. No doubt in my mind. I assume that this kid's parents were in denial over his problems, either they treated him like a special little snowflake who could do nothing wrong or they neglected whatever warning signs there may have been that their son was batshit insane. Either way I feel that they ignored what their son was capable of.

As far as gun control is concerned, I can see the argue on both sides but the reality is that there are just far too many guns for their to be massive restrictions and to make them a rarity for people who really want to use them in negative ways. I don't have the exact numbers on hand but I believe that there is close to a 1:1 ratio of guns to either humans or adult humans in the United States. That's one-hundred plus million guns. It just doesn't seem feasible to me to remove all of those guns from their owners or to restrict them in any direct way.

Some things that I can see being implemented, although I don't know how much it would have helped in this case since I believe the guns this kid used were owned by someone else in his family, would be to have more rigorous background checks when purchasing a firearm in all states of our union. Crazy people are crazy. It's pretty simple. If someone has mental health issues then they should simply not have the right to own a gun and they should not have access to a gun. Of course such a law would be pointless if everyone didn't have access to high quality mental healthcare so I believe that it would require a combination of the two for it to do any good.

In addition to that people need to be more aware of the mental health of the people close to them. As I said above, I have no doubt that I would know with absolute certainty whether my son was crazy and capable of doing something so horrendous. People need to know that some people are crazy, they have problems, whether it is a mental illness or whether they are just plain bad people I don't know, but I think that it's going to be made clear after knowing someone so intimately.

I personally know someone who had some sort of mental problem, a friend of my brother, who ended up in a terrible murder suicide. The guy was indeed batshit crazy and everyone knew it. He started talking about aliens and other random conspiracies, he would watch a blank television, etc. My brother wasn't very bright and continued being around this person, I believe that he was in the sort of denial that I mentioned above. If it's a good friend of yours, a family member, your child, you just don't want to believe that they could be such a bad person. You just don't. But if it was a third party looking in with no bias such as I was in the case with my brother, I suggested that he stay as far away from the guy as possible because that just sounded like bad news to me.

My point is that people need to be more aware and less biased when it comes to the mental stability and health of their loved ones. If you feel that something is wrong, then to a third party something was likely wrong a long, long time ago. Their loved one needs to get help as soon as possible before something terrible happens.

Another part of this whole thing that I am tending to agree with is that the media is also playing a role in this garbage behavior. They put these killers on television and continue to go over the same terrible things, over and over and over again. I have no doubt that crazy people are out there watching these newscasts and thinking to themselves that they are going to be just like that, their face all blown up on the television. It's sad to think that people are that insane but they are. Some people are just crazy.


tl;dr -- Better mental healthcare is necessary, especially for gun owners and people with access to guns. In addition to that people need to heighten their awareness and drop their bias when it comes to the mental state of their loved ones. Prevent crazy before it happens.
 

Voyce

Shit Lord Supreme
<Donor>
8,200
29,037
I don't know what the fuck malnutrition and dehydration have to do with this thread but that comment is just plain retarded...



This is a terrible event that happened today. It is part gun control and it's also part "crazy people being crazy" as is popularly said. How do we fix it?

Well to start there needs to be more awareness and better treatment for mental health (and health in general) in our country. I said it many times today in discussions that I've had over this, I feel absolutely certain that I would know if my son could possibly kill 20 young children. No doubt in my mind. I assume that this kid's parents were in denial over his problems, either they treated him like a special little snowflake who could do nothing wrong or they neglected whatever warning signs there may have been that their son was batshit insane. Either way I feel that they ignored what their son was capable of.

As far as gun control is concerned, I can see the argue on both sides but the reality is that there are just far too many guns for their to be massive restrictions and to make them a rarity for people who really want to use them in negative ways. I don't have the exact numbers on hand but I believe that there is close to a 1:1 ratio of guns to either humans or adult humans in the United States. That's one-hundred plus million guns. It just doesn't seem feasible to me to remove all of those guns from their owners or to restrict them in any direct way.

Some things that I can see being implemented, although I don't know how much it would have helped in this case since I believe the guns this kid used were owned by someone else in his family, would be to have more rigorous background checks when purchasing a firearm in all states of our union. Crazy people are crazy. It's pretty simple. If someone has mental health issues then they should simply not have the right to own a gun and they should not have access to a gun. Of course such a law would be pointless if everyone didn't have access to high quality mental healthcare so I believe that it would require a combination of the two for it to do any good.

In addition to that people need to be more aware of the mental health of the people close to them. As I said above, I have no doubt that I would know with absolute certainty whether my son was crazy and capable of doing something so horrendous. People need to know that some people are crazy, they have problems, whether it is a mental illness or whether they are just plain bad people I don't know, but I think that it's going to be made clear after knowing someone so intimately.

I personally know someone who had some sort of mental problem, a friend of my brother, who ended up in a terrible murder suicide. The guy was indeed batshit crazy and everyone knew it. He started talking about aliens and other random conspiracies, he would watch a blank television, etc. My brother wasn't very bright and continued being around this person, I believe that he was in the sort of denial that I mentioned above. If it's a good friend of yours, a family member, your child, you just don't want to believe that they could be such a bad person. You just don't. But if it was a third party looking in with no bias such as I was in the case with my brother, I suggested that he stay as far away from the guy as possible because that just sounded like bad news to me.

My point is that people need to be more aware and less biased when it comes to the mental stability and health of their loved ones. If you feel that something is wrong, then to a third party something was likely wrong a long, long time ago. Their loved one needs to get help as soon as possible before something terrible happens.

Another part of this whole thing that I am tending to agree with is that the media is also playing a role in this garbage behavior. They put these killers on television and continue to go over the same terrible things, over and over and over again. I have no doubt that crazy people are out there watching these newscasts and thinking to themselves that they are going to be just like that, their face all blown up on the television. It's sad to think that people are that insane but they are. Some people are just crazy.


tl;dr -- Better mental healthcare is necessary, especially for gun owners and people with access to guns. In addition to that people need to heighten their awareness and drop their bias when it comes to the mental state of their loved ones. Prevent crazy before it happens.
Thank you for having an intelligent opinion.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
If god loved you so much, why did he make you so fucking dumb?

Or better yet, why did he allow those 20 children get killed?

All part of god's plan, right? Isn't that how you rationalize all of this?
1. Ignorance is Bliss
tongue.png

2. Free will is a necessary condition for faith, otherwise we'd just be robots. And freewill to be freewill must allow for the choice to do evil which is usually defined as doing unto others what you would not want done to yourself.
3. Yes and Yes.

@Anomander Rake Yes a little. As I said, I'm flattered... but no. Also I don't smoke.

@imrready2Go We're actually mostly good, it just doesn't make for great news. For the 1/10,000,000 willing to kill kids, 9,999,999/10,000,000 are not.

tongue.png


tongue.png
 

Anomander Rake

Golden Knight of the Realm
704
14
tad, you I don't mind tbh - but would you mind not quoting him? It defeats the purpose of the forum ignore feature.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,358
80,745
I don't know what the fuck malnutrition and dehydration have to do with this thread but that comment is just plain retarded...



This is a terrible event that happened today. It is part gun control and it's also part "crazy people being crazy" as is popularly said. How do we fix it?

Well to start there needs to be more awareness and better treatment for mental health (and health in general) in our country. I said it many times today in discussions that I've had over this, I feel absolutely certain that I would know if my son could possibly kill 20 young children. No doubt in my mind. I assume that this kid's parents were in denial over his problems, either they treated him like a special little snowflake who could do nothing wrong or they neglected whatever warning signs there may have been that their son was batshit insane. Either way I feel that they ignored what their son was capable of.

As far as gun control is concerned, I can see the argue on both sides but the reality is that there are just far too many guns for their to be massive restrictions and to make them a rarity for people who really want to use them in negative ways. I don't have the exact numbers on hand but I believe that there is close to a 1:1 ratio of guns to either humans or adult humans in the United States. That's one-hundred plus million guns. It just doesn't seem feasible to me to remove all of those guns from their owners or to restrict them in any direct way.

Some things that I can see being implemented, although I don't know how much it would have helped in this case since I believe the guns this kid used were owned by someone else in his family, would be to have more rigorous background checks when purchasing a firearm in all states of our union. Crazy people are crazy. It's pretty simple. If someone has mental health issues then they should simply not have the right to own a gun and they should not have access to a gun. Of course such a law would be pointless if everyone didn't have access to high quality mental healthcare so I believe that it would require a combination of the two for it to do any good.

In addition to that people need to be more aware of the mental health of the people close to them. As I said above, I have no doubt that I would know with absolute certainty whether my son was crazy and capable of doing something so horrendous. People need to know that some people are crazy, they have problems, whether it is a mental illness or whether they are just plain bad people I don't know, but I think that it's going to be made clear after knowing someone so intimately.

I personally know someone who had some sort of mental problem, a friend of my brother, who ended up in a terrible murder suicide. The guy was indeed batshit crazy and everyone knew it. He started talking about aliens and other random conspiracies, he would watch a blank television, etc. My brother wasn't very bright and continued being around this person, I believe that he was in the sort of denial that I mentioned above. If it's a good friend of yours, a family member, your child, you just don't want to believe that they could be such a bad person. You just don't. But if it was a third party looking in with no bias such as I was in the case with my brother, I suggested that he stay as far away from the guy as possible because that just sounded like bad news to me.

My point is that people need to be more aware and less biased when it comes to the mental stability and health of their loved ones. If you feel that something is wrong, then to a third party something was likely wrong a long, long time ago. Their loved one needs to get help as soon as possible before something terrible happens.

Another part of this whole thing that I am tending to agree with is that the media is also playing a role in this garbage behavior. They put these killers on television and continue to go over the same terrible things, over and over and over again. I have no doubt that crazy people are out there watching these newscasts and thinking to themselves that they are going to be just like that, their face all blown up on the television. It's sad to think that people are that insane but they are. Some people are just crazy.


tl;dr -- Better mental healthcare is necessary, especially for gun owners and people with access to guns. In addition to that people need to heighten their awareness and drop their bias when it comes to the mental state of their loved ones. Prevent crazy before it happens.
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Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
80,134
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But not your wallet, or anything that would actually inconvenience you in any way.
Praying is easy and cost free. The perfect solution for someone who doesn't give a fuck but likes to pretends that they do.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
80,134
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Since Tad brought up that he believes that it was all part of god's plan to kill 20 kids.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...systematically

Huckabee: Schools 'A Place Of Carnage' Because We 'Systematically Removed God'

BENJY SARLIN 5:24 PM EST, FRIDAY DECEMBER 14, 2012



Former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee attributed the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in part to restrictions on school prayer and religious materials in the classroom.

"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News, discussing the murder spree that took the lives of 20 children and 6 adults in Newtown, CT that morning. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

Law enforcement has released few details on the alleged gunman, but Huckabee suggested that the separation of church and state may have spurred his rampage.

"[W]e've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability -- that we're not just going to have be accountable to the police if they catch us, but one day we stand before, you know, a holy God in judgment," Huckabee said. "If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that."

He said those suffering from a crisis from faith should look to God in the community's response to the violence. But he added that "Maybe we ought to let [God] in on the front end and we wouldn't have to call him to show up when it's all said and done at the back end."
 

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
80
Sure a terrible event happened today.

Terrible events against everyone, children / adults are common all over the world. The point is valid. Just because thousands die doesn't make the 20 that died here any less tragic.

What is tragic is that people tend to not give a fuck about the thousands because they are far away or have a different skin color than our own. No one will shed a tear here for them and its sad because we consume so much of the world's resources yet couldn't give a fuck about anyone other than ourselves or our suppliers.
 

LadyVex_sl

shitlord
868
0
Sure a terrible events happened today.

Terrible events against everyone, children / adults are common all over the world. The point is valid. Just because thousands die doesn't make the 20 that die her any less tragic. What is tragic is that people tend to not give a fuck about the thousands because they are far away or have a different skin color than our own.
I'm just not certain why this needs to be stated. It feels...disrespectful. It's absolutely true, and I guess it can't be helped...events like this tend to make people think about things; some look inward, others lash outward. Either way, I don't know that a thread where people discuss the tragedy is really the thread to be waxing poetic about those issues. It detracts away from the whole point, and that is: 18 kids died today and all they did was get up and go to school.
 

Charles_sl

shitlord
228
0
In Texas we have a law requiring every public and private school district, college campus, and university to maintain a full state accredited police department. They must also have officers with training in active shooter scenarios stationed on any campus with students or faculty present, even for after-hours extra curricular activities.

One of my cop friends was a campus police officer here in Austin and was considering quitting his job a few years ago because the liberal majority of teachers and students at the college had successfully convinced the college higher-ups to take the guns from the officers and arm them only with mace, a walkie-talkie and feel-good officer friendly polo shirts. They were outraged that people with meany police uniforms and guns were desecrating their sacred halls of learning, their wittle feewings were intimidated. The Virgina tech shootings happened just before they were going to put the policy into effect, so yeah, the policy change was dropped, the liberal cunts dropped their campaign, and my friend kept his job and sidearm.

You guys think armed campus police might have helped here?
This is an interesting post in the last few pages. If you disagree with him politically then try to ignore that and focus on the topic: some sort of police presence in schools.


Many schools already have some sort of police or security presence, even outside of higher education, they have police stationed in many inner city schools for example. Mainly I believe that is to prevent things like drugs on campus and maybe minor violence among the students, I'm not quite sure but it's certainly not because they are worried about mass murder taking place within the school.

I don't have any children myself but I do have several nieces, nephews, and young cousins, and honestly I would feel more comfortable knowing that their was at least some sort of police officer or guard on duty while the children were at their schools for various things. It would likely deter crazy people to begin with and it would undoubtedly delay a crazy person who managed to get past the officer or guard, which would hopefully result in saved lives. It seems like a positive thing to me and it wouldn't be that costly, even if it's only one officer or guard per school that's going to be a small increase in local budgets and I wouldn't have an issue with the federal government helping to relieve the cost.

There's no good reason for parents or teachers to be angry about it. Especially for kids this young, it could be a minor talking point in one of their classes sort of like when an officer or fireman would come to visit. They could be in a neutral location. It doesn't have to be a serious thing, just an increase in safety and security for the students, teachers, and employees of the school. If anything terrible happened then at the very least the school officer would be able to notify the local department immediately and also try his or her best to prevent the crazy person from doing any harm.

Just doing a quick calculation, assuming that there are 100,000 public schools and 35,000 private schools in the US (estimated based on this:http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84), at $60,000 per school officer that's only $8.1 billion. That doesn't seem like very much to me, even municipalities on their own could handle that cost in most cases.

What's wrong with this idea?
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
I am honestly unmoved by near or distant tragedies unless they affect me or those I care about. I think it's unfortunate, but it doesn't really affect my emotional status. I don't care what their economic, ethnic, genetic, citizenship, etc. status is. Unless we perceive it accurately and take steps to prevent future events, it will be in vain. If we can save the lives of an equal or greater amount of people by enacting change, then the lesson was well learned and we're better off for having learned it. If our current liberty is too valuable to sacrifice some component of it to prevent these events, then this is the price we pay for it.

I think the best solution is the least perceptible in the short term, improving our educational system and cultivating a stronger culture of encouraging people to educate themselves. This is for the whackjob that committed the crimes and those closest to him. Gun bans and metal detectors in place A will just make the nutjobs go to place B. Short of living under some kind of actionable surveillance 24/7, these people will find a way to do significant harm to others. The federal government of the USA will NEVER ban every type of firearm available to the general public, which makes the proposition of limiting them doomed to fail unless other measures are taken.
 
922
3
No ban on guns. Better regulation I can get behind.

The mall shooting the other day happened because an irresponsible gun owner didn't lock up their shit.

I wonder how the school shooter got his guns?

I'd also be for some sort of yearly mental evaluation when it comes to gun ownership. It won't catch everybody for sure but that's the thing people need to realize.

Life isn't safe, there is no way to be completely safe. If people didn't walk around with that illusion in their head all the times they wouldn't be as shocked when stuff like this happened.

You can't depend on the police/government to protect you all the time, so learn how to protect yourself. Gun's are one of those tools that assist you in that.
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
20,277
85,872
Charles,

You have a pretty good post(earlier one) but there's no way i'm going to quote it. Some of the info you provide though isn't quite a full picture. The options for people who have mental disorders or take care of the person who has mental disorders are severely limited. The mentally ill do not get the same standard of care because they can't complain for themselves and their families are just too happy that someone else is actually doing something for once. There are many disorders, the medicine is quite expensive and extensive as well, and insurance is a bitch to try and squeeze any money from. Many times, a person is given short term care(about 3 weeks) and, unless they have a proven tendency of violent behavior, are released because the funding is running out. You can't fix mania, the many variations of schizophrenia, etc in three weeks.

Throw in the side effects from taking so many meds and the person usually tapers off their dosage as soon as they aren't the prime focus of attention. The person taking care of them has to work, live their lives, etc don't they? How many people admit or even notice when they fall off the wagon? The blame goes to a government that closed mental institutions to save money and 'ensure' equal freedom. Instantly, the homeless population exploded as well as problems for anyone that actually did take in the 'crazy' uncle. Our government is willing to put massive money into a corrupt and close to worthless prison system, yet doesn't feel the need to try and help a similarly sized group of people. Why do murderers get 32,000 spent on them every year with free TV, internet, heating, healthcare, and a job system that not only is a joke but ensures there's enough money to payoff any politician that has a prison in hs district(a lot of them). Couldn't a similar system work for the mentally ill and help them and protect us?

The gun issue is a problem that only has a few fixes that could be installed. There should be stronger background checks and it should take 2-3 weeks to get your gun approved. Why do company employment background checks take longer than a gun one? Outside of that, Americans are allowed to own just about anything and do. I feel that this will eventually push the government to try and restrict even more of our freedoms. Patriot Act still not repealed so i'm sure it won't be stopped either. Fearmongering is pretty effective. I also don't want every damn place in public to have police, gates, and metal detectors. I do find the complete freedom to buy anything a bit rediculous even though i enjoy my toys. Hypocrite i know.
 

Blide_sl

shitlord
188
1
Just doing a quick calculation, assuming that there are 100,000 public schools and 35,000 private schools in the US (estimated based on this:http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84), at $60,000 per school officer that's only $8.1 billion. That doesn't seem like very much to me, even municipalities on their own could handle that cost in most cases.

What's wrong with this idea?
I don't think this would do anything beyond provide a false sense of security to parents, teachers, and students. The chances of a lone officer being in any position to stop a shooting are pretty low given the size of an average school.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
@Araysar & Grumpus You miss the point. It's part of the plan that we all die. Preferably nicely in our sleep but often otherways as well.

You want the facts of life?

The facts of life are that freewilll means that people die in bad ways, and yes that's part of the plan. Because the alternative is worse.

The alternative is that we're robots who smile and are constantly polite to each other until the end of time - constantly pleasant, unable to be great and good or ugly and evil.

And part of the we get freewill plan means that a now-dead asshole pussy in CT could take two guns and kill 26 innocent people, 20 of which seem to be kindergarteners.

But it also means you guys get to be assholes too, albeit on a much, much smaller scale. Araysar you're an ass on these boards on a daily basis - absent freewill you'd only be able to talk about rainbows and butterflies. What you and Grumpus want is the right to be assholes, but not allow anyone else. Fuck you for that and no sale: no candy without some cost.

So yes, it is part of God's plan that people get to do whatever the fuck they want on this planet while they're here and suffer the consequences (good or bad) in the hereafter.

Let's compare that to your plan, or rather lack thereof - in godless Universe there is no absolute morality. Everyone is a 'little god' and creates their own moral system - in that world killing 20 kids is no different than baking 20 cakes. If it feels right to the person doing it then it is morally right - perfectly encapsulated by the phrase "Do what you will and let that be the whole of the law." By giving up on God you've destroyed morality which puts you in that ass in CT on exactly the same level. Thumbs High.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
I don't think this would do anything beyond provide a false sense of security to parents, teachers, and students. The chances of a lone officer being in any position to stop a shooting are pretty low given the size of an average school.
The question isn't will it stop the shootout but would it mitigate the number of deaths, if the answer to the latter is yes then we should do it.
 

Blide_sl

shitlord
188
1
The question isn't will it stop the shootout but would it mitigate the number of deaths, if the answer to the latter is yes then we should do it.
I'm not convinced they'd even be able to mitigate the number of deaths. I mean just look at that mall shooting, the police and security presence there did nothing to change the ultimate outcome.
 

Charles_sl

shitlord
228
0
I don't think this would do anything beyond provide a false sense of security to parents, teachers, and students. The chances of a lone officer being in any position to stop a shooting are pretty low given the size of an average school.
Granted that it would be hard for a single officer to stop the person, especially if they have body armor of some sort (as this kid apparently did, a vest?) and/or powerful weapons. But what it would do is provide a delay along with a direct and immediate link to the local police department, which is going to mean less time for the crazy person to cause damage. How much less time, I don't know. Whether it's worth billions of dollars, right now I would say yes but as I said that number is based on that simple calculation alone. Obviously there would have to be research done as to whether it was more important and helpful for an officer to be in a school or somewhere else.

One thing I can say is that I would much rather have an officer stationed in local schools rather than having them hide out on a side road watching for people going a couple of miles over the speed limit or driving around and ticketing minor parking violations. If we can use officers to do those things, then I think that we can certainly use them to help to secure schools and prevent tragedies like this.