Murders and Shootings

Charles_sl said:

One thing I can say is that I would much rather have an officer stationed in local schools rather than having them hide out on a side road watching for people going a couple of miles over the speed limit or driving around and ticketing minor parking violations. If we can use officers to do those things, then I think that we can certainly use them to help to secure schools and prevent tragedies like this.

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What's ironic about this statement is that kids are exponentially more likely to die on their way to school than at school.

Charles_sl said:

Granted that it would be hard for a single officer to stop the person, especially if they have body armor of some sort (as this kid apparently did, a vest?) and/or powerful weapons. But what it would do is provide a delay along with a direct and immediate link to the local police department, which is going to mean less time for the crazy person to cause damage. How much less time, I don't know. Whether it's worth billions of dollars, right now I would say yes but as I said that number is based on that simple calculation alone. Obviously there would have to be research done as to whether it was more important and helpful for an officer to be in a school or somewhere else.

One thing I can say is that I would much rather have an officer stationed in local schools rather than having them hide out on a side road watching for people going a couple of miles over the speed limit or driving around and ticketing minor parking violations. If we can use officers to do those things, then I think that we can certainly use them to help to secure schools and prevent tragedies like this.

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I imagine one police officer stationed on a school campus wouldn't do much good in a situation like this or any shooting for that matter. If anything it would cause more headaches for schools as kids proceed to fuck with bored cops. Most cops have a "better than you" attitude also so I can't imagine them just shrugging off the "free speech". Also, a bored cop will look for stuff to "fix" even if there is nothing wrong.

Suggestions like cops in schools is just a knee jerk reaction to hold together this illusion of safety.

foddon_sl said:

I seems like the amount of these incidents is increasing pretty drastically (although I haven't looked it up). I'd have to agree that the new media environmentwittinglypromotes it.

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FTFY. "If it bleeds it leads" is nothing new in the infotainment industry.

I'm tired of the news telling us what tofeelas if I'm confused and unsure whether to clap or cry. I was caught off guard this afternoon once I heard the story break but I was equally disgusted at the media pushing their emotions on us to ramp up the gun control issue. As another poster stated, this has more to do with the mental state of a person versus whether or not a particular weapon was involved and banning it. This kid wanted revenge and got it; If anything it oughta wake up parents to pay the fuck attention to their own parental habits and their kids' habits. Next thing you know they'll start blaming his teachers for not doing a better job...

Blide_sl said:

What's ironic about this statement is that kids are exponentially more likely to die on their way to school than at school.

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That isn't irony.

I don't doubt that more kids die on their way to school than while they are actually at school though. Sadly your argument makes no sense as they are completely different issues and different topics. Perhaps if you could say with certainty that minor parking and traffic violations caused a great deal of deaths in children on their way to school then you would be on to something. Thankfully where I live we don't have any issues with parking violations and death, especially homicides.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

I imagine one police officer stationed on a school campus wouldn't do much good in a situation like this or any shooting for that matter. If anything it would cause more headaches for schools as kids proceed to fuck with bored cops. Most cops have a "better than you" attitude also so I can't imagine them just shrugging off the "free speech". Also, a bored cop will look for stuff to "fix" even if there is nothing wrong.

Suggestions like cops in schools is just a knee jerk reaction to hold together this illusion of safety.

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It isn't a knee-jerk reaction at all. As the original poster that I quoted and I have pointed out, this is the case in many schools already, especially colleges and universities, many have their own small police departments that handle things. Granted that they handle minor things, they certainly wouldn't handle anything serious solely on their own, but the whole point is that it is a means of prevention.

Can you two argue that it would not help to delay the crazy person, and in addition to that help the local police force to be notified and arrive at the scene sooner? I don't think so but I'm all ears.

Double posts.

Charles_sl said:

It isn't a knee-jerk reaction at all. As the original poster that I quoted and I have pointed out, this is the case in many schools already, especially colleges and universities, many have their own small police departments that handle things. Granted that they handle minor things, they certainly wouldn't handle anything serious solely on their own, but the whole point is that it is a means of prevention.

Can you two argue that it would not help to delay the crazy person, and in addition to that help the local police force to be notified and arrive at the scene sooner? I don't think so but I'm all ears.

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Nice logical fallacy, moving the burden of proof onto me.

I'm not the one who wants to change the way school campuses are run. Schools can still hire security or put police officers into them if they want. I don't think it should be mandatory though. I also pointed out some reasons why schools might not want cops on their campuses.

Security isn't the issue, crazy people are.

I swear the chicken littles of the world will make sure we have a TSA style system set up everywhere before too long.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

Security isn't the issue, crazy people are.

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Exactly. Security is meant to serve as a deterrent for minor crimes. There's no way you can deter someone who's willing to throw their life away.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

Nice logical fallacy, moving the burden of proof onto me.

I'm not the one who wants to change the way school campuses are run. Schools can still hire security or put police officers into them if they want. I don't think it should be mandatory though. I also pointed out some reasons why schools might not want cops on their campuses.

Security isn't the issue, crazy people are.

I swear the chicken littles of the world will make sure we have a TSA style system set up everywhere before too long.

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I provided the proof slick.

If there were a police officer inside of the school in this case then it would have at the very least been a road block in front of the crazy guy, no matter how small of a road block, that isn't the argument. The point is that an officer simply being there is going to do something to distract and/or delay the killer. Secondly it also would have been a faster and more efficient way to contact the local police department due to the officer on duty knowing how to relatively calmly and accurately describe the situation.

Now it's your turn. You should argue against one or both of those points. Describe how the bored officer being "fucked with" and how an officers "better than you attitude" would counter my argument and in fact allow this crazy murderer to kill even more people.



Edit: Also I am in no way advocating a TSA-type system. I think that the TSA hassles innocent and harmless people for no reason other than to give a false sense of security to people and make it seem like they are doing something good.

This is completely opposite of that. This is a police officer doing his or her relatively minor duty (which is why I compared it to traffic cops) that in a situation such as this would most likely save lives.

Edit #2: Whereas an officer giving minor traffic violations or parking tickets all day isn't going to do much in the way of increasing safety, a school officer also wouldn't do much in the way of increasing safety, which Blide pointed out, is because there aren't many homicides in schools thankfully. But I can't think of one single homicide that resulted in a mis-parked car nor a driver going a couple of miles over the speed limit. To me it seems that the potential is much greater.

Along with the potential being greater it is also completely different in terms of manpower. As I said in my earlier post, my estimate was 135,000 new police officers. It would take a hell of a lot more officers than that to police every single driver on the road and every single car that's mis-parked.

So again, what makes it a bad idea? You two aren't making any sort of real argument from what I can see.

Charles_sl said:

I provided the proof slick.

If there were a police officer inside of the school in this case then it would have at the very least been a road block in front of the crazy guy, no matter how small of a road block, that isn't the argument. The point is that an officer simply being there is going to do something to distract and/or delay the killer. Secondly it also would have been a faster and more efficient way to contact the local police department due to the officer on duty knowing how to relatively calmly and accurately describe the situation.

Now it's your turn. You should argue against one or both of those points. Describe how the bored officer being "fucked with" and how an officers "better than you attitude" would counter my argument and in fact allow this crazy murderer to kill even more people.



Edit: Also I am in no way advocating a TSA-type system. I think that the TSA hassles innocent and harmless people for no reason other than to give a false sense of security to people and make it seem like they are doing something good.

This is completely opposite of that. This is a police officer doing his or her relatively minor duty (which is why I compared it to traffic cops) that in a situation such as this would most likely save lives.

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That's the logical fallacy of what you propose though. That anything short of a TSA style system at schools would be able to delay or stop a determined crazy person with any sort of consistency or regularity. I'm ok with optional security / police that some campuses opt for.

Unless there is a massive security force monitoring schools though, the likelihood of something like this being prevented is minimal and not worth the state / federal spending. If local cities / counties want to run with it and raise taxes for a campus security measure that should be up to them.

A discussion about how to keep guns out of crazy people's hands would be more beneficial than discussing security systems of limited usefulness.

Charles_sl said:

I provided the proof slick.

If there were a police officer inside of the school in this case then it would have at the very least been a road block in front of the crazy guy, no matter how small of a road block, that isn't the argument. The point is that an officer simply being there is going to do something to distract and/or delay the killer. Secondly it also would have been a faster and more efficient way to contact the local police department due to the officer on duty knowing how to relatively calmly and accurately describe the situation.

Now it's your turn. You should argue against one or both of those points. Describe how the bored officer being "fucked with" and how an officers "better than you attitude" would counter my argument and in fact allow this crazy murderer to kill even more people.

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Easy, drive up in a van, wait until kids start flooding out of school, shoot your semi-automatic, kill 5-10 kids, then kill yourself.

Charles_sl said:

So again, what makes it a bad idea? You two aren't making any sort of real argument from what I can see.

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The issue is that it's not an efficient or effective allocation of resources. Local school systems and police forces are already stretched thin due to budget cuts. You're advocating that they cut other services just so they can provide security for something that's statistically not going to happen.

I'd also like to point out that the shooter didn't own any of the guns used in the shooting.

I'm starting to see a recurring trend in these shooting threads.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

That's the logical fallacy of what you propose though. That anything short of a TSA style system at schools would be able to delay or stop a determined crazy person with any sort of consistency or regularity. I'm ok with optional security / police that some campuses opt for.

Unless there is a massive security force monitoring schools though, the likelihood of something like this being prevented is minimal and not worth the state / federal spending. If local cities / counties want to run with it and raise taxes for a campus security measure that should be up to them.

A discussion about how to keep guns out of crazy people's hands would be more beneficial than discussing security systems of limited usefulness.

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I would argue that the TSA system is extremely bloated and overall unnecessary simply based on the evidence. Off hand I can't think of a single thing that the TSA has prevented from happening and I seriously doubt that they keep such things under wraps. Thinking of the shoe bomber, underwear bomber, etc. I don't recall the TSA playing any part in preventing those guys.

I suppose we could look at Virginia Tech, they probably have some sort of campus police force or security but also I feel that it's hard to compare as VT is a large campus, surely it would be easier to police a relatively small school.

You have made your opinion pretty clear but I think that you should consider a few more things. For example I was thinking of the homicide rate in the US, which isn't too extreme, Wikipedia said it was like 4.5 or something close to that, then I was thinking of how many police officers we have already and what the ratio was of homicides to officers. Of course school shootings are rare and thus the homicide rate for them would be much lower, I didn't come up with an actual number but it was clearly lower than the overall number. Then I also looked at how many police officers that we have, which was a bit tough to find as I see a lot of numbers listed as "law enforcement personnel" and such so it's hard to say.

It was clear that an extra 135,000 police officers would be a dramatic increase in the police force but with a budget of $8.1 billion it didn't seem like much to me honestly. In reality there would be a lot of overages and corruption I'm sure, I doubt my $8.1 billion would hold up for very long. Maybe I'm missing something huge but it basically seems like the cost of hiring one additional teacher per school, that's not much.

Basically it boiled down, at least in my mind, of what a school should provide to us and our children. Of course the first and most obvious thing was an education, but after that was security. A school should be a place where a child feels secure and safe, doesn't have to worry, and can learn their little heart out. And the same applies for parents, and hell even grandparents and other family members. People should not be worried that their child is unsafe at school due to a clear lack of security.

As I pointed out in my argument: Are minor traffic and parking violations really more important than security and what should be the second safest place for a child? I don't think so.

Blide_sl said:

The issue is that it's not an efficient or effective allocation of resources. Local school systems and police forces are already stretched thin due to budget cuts. You're advocating that they cut other services just so they can provide security for something that's statistically not going to happen.

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That's debatable. What are we using our police force for? As I pointed out, many officers are used for simple and very minor traffic stops (I'm sure you know a place where a cop just camps out and nabs people for minor speeding violations) and even parking violations. That isn't what I want my police officers doing.

Also consider the massive amount of time, effort, manpower, and money that goes into the war on drugs. I don't see how a person doing drugs privately in their home can take more of my tax dollars than keeping school children secure.

The point is that there are plenty of nonsense areas that we can cut back on to make up for the cost and resources involved.



Edit:

Trollface_sl said:

if you need a police man in a school, that just means that the society has issues. violence is only a symptom because i can fucking guarantee you that not every crazy people in other societies go out and shoot people. you need to cure the cause. Japanese don't have fucking cops in their school, nor Korea. That shit never happens in ANY school.

Why, for example, do American minorities (i.e. Black and Hispanics) commit so much crime in a disproportionate level compared to other races? The shit is bigger than you think and larger budget, "effective" policing, bigger prison don't necessarily address the problem. It only bandages (or just cover it) the problem and don't do shit about the cause.

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Bad stuff happens to children in other countries too, including while they are in school. Someone linked the stabbing of school children in China, there was that crazy guy in Norway killing kids at a camp, etc. I'm sure that it has happened in Japan and Korea as well.

As for Black and Hispanic people doing a disproportionate amount of crime, that's solely because of drugs. The illegal drug trade is full of violence and causes an extreme increase in crime overall but especially in the areas that are mostly affected by said illegal drugs.

tad10_sl said:

@Araysar & Grumpus You miss the point. It's part of the plan that we all die. Preferably nicely in our sleep but often otherways as well.

You want the facts of life?

The facts of life are that freewilll means that people die in bad ways, and yes that's part of the plan. Because the alternative is worse.

The alternative is that we're robots who smile and are constantly polite to each other until the end of time - constantly pleasant, unable to be great and good or ugly and evil.

And part of the we get freewill plan means that a now-dead asshole pussy in CT could take two guns and kill 26 innocent people, 20 of which seem to be kindergarteners.

But it also means you guys get to be assholes too, albeit on a much, much smaller scale. Araysar you're an ass on these boards on a daily basis - absent freewill you'd only be able to talk about rainbows and butterflies. What you and Grumpus want is the right to be assholes, but not allow anyone else. Fuck you for that and no sale: no candy without some cost.

So yes, it is part of God's plan that people get to do whatever the fuck they want on this planet while they're here and suffer the consequences (good or bad) in the hereafter.

Let's compare that to your plan, or rather lack thereof - in godless Universe there is no absolute morality. Everyone is a 'little god' and creates their own moral system - in that world killing 20 kids is no different than baking 20 cakes. If it feels right to the person doing it then it is morally right - perfectly encapsulated by the phrase "Do what you will and let that be the whole of the law." By giving up on God you've destroyed morality which puts you in that ass in CT on exactly the same level. Thumbs High.

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There is absolutely no link between religious belief and morality. You're free to believe whatever you want, but insinuating that if this kid had just been told to believe in Jesus that he wouldn't have done what he did is not only wrong, it's insulting to everyone involved and humanity at large. Do you honestly believe that the only reason a whole lot of people don't rape and steal and murder is because they think they'll be punished after death? Because that's a fucking terrifying thought.

Trollface_sl said:

Never said that it doesn't happen in other countries. I said that other countries do not waste policemen in schools. In America, they do. That's fucking bizarre.

In Korea, we don't have mass shooting like you guys. We have a huge number of suicide--not bizarre shootout. A number of things make this possible: A strict gun restriction and limit to access.

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Don't bother trying to convince Americans that there's a direct correlation between how easy it is to get a gun and how many people get killed by guns. That special little piece of cognitive dissonance is very deeply embedded into the American psyche.