Murders and Shootings

Ronne_sl said:

Completely unrelated to the actual topic, but as someone who was home schooled his entire life, DO NOT DO THAT TO YOUR CHILDREN. They have like a 99% chance to come out of it drooling social retards.

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This. I was also home schooled, and I agree with you completely.

Azrayne_sl said:

Don't bother trying to convince Americans that there's a direct correlation between how easy it is to get a gun and how many people get killed by guns. That special little piece of cognitive dissonance is very deeply embedded into the American psyche.

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Except that's been proven wrong by other countries that also allow gun ownership and have less gun related deaths.

It really comes down to American's being irresponsible. I know that's a shock to everybody and probably the first time you've heard that >_>

Gun ownership is ok.

Irresponsible gun ownership is not.

This shooting and the mall shooting both have one thing in common. The shooters were using guns that were not theirs because the owner did not secure them.


So you can debate about banning certain guns or putting up security of questionable effectiveness in every school but that won't change the source of the problem. Irresponsibility.

Gun's are not the problem, it's the people who end up owning them.

The people allowed to own guns needs to be better regulated and the ways we as a society determine who is responsible enough to own a gun should be discussed.

You may now continue your discussion about how if people were religious they wouldn't kill (lulz) or how putting a few cops in schools will solve all school gun violence.

Big Phoenix_sl said:

Youre all faggots;

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-ma...183593571.html

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I'm not sure what the point of that article is. They say he 'confronted' the shooter, but it sounds like all he did was pull his gun out then go hide? I mean I think he did the right thing in not trying to be a hero, but couldn't he have just as easily gone and hidden in a store without a gun? Why does the fact that he had a gun he never used make this news material?

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

Except that's been proven wrong by other countries that also allow gun ownership and have less gun related deaths.

It really comes down to American's being irresponsible. I know that's a shock to everybody and probably the first time you've heard that >_>

Gun ownership is ok.

Irresponsible gun ownership is not.

This shooting and the mall shooting both have one thing in common. The shooters were using guns that were not theirs because the owner did not secure them.


So you can debate about banning certain guns or putting up security of questionable effectiveness in every school but that won't change the source of the problem. Irresponsibility.

Gun's are not the problem, it's the people who end up owning them.

The people allowed to own guns needs to be better regulated and the ways we as a society determine who is responsible enough to own a gun should be discussed.

You may now continue your discussion about how if people were religious they wouldn't kill (lulz) or how putting a few cops in schools will solve all school gun violence.

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I'd bet that those countries have stricter controls on access/storage and less dangerous firearms available to the public.

Edit: Doubles, muhbad.

Charles_sl said:

That's debatable. What are we using our police force for? As I pointed out, many officers are used for simple and very minor traffic stops (I'm sure you know a place where a cop just camps out and nabs people for minor speeding violations) and even parking violations. That isn't what I want my police officers doing.

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They write tickets because they're trying to generate revenue to offset the fact they're not sufficiently funded. The public has an expectation that officers respond to all their 911 calls in a timely manner but that can't happen if they can't afford enough officers. Then of course voters usually vote down any tax increase that would alleviate the situation.

"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

"We don't have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem," Huckabee said on Fox News. "And since we've ordered God out of our schools, and communities, the military and public conversations, you know we really shouldn't act so surprised ... when all hell breaks loose."

Disgusting.

No doubt that guns have a multiplier effect that make these shootings much more destructive, but at the end of the day, guns are still tools and are just as responsible for gun violence as pens are responsible for misspellings, cars are responsible for traffic violations and whoppers are responsible for obesity.

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I'm sorry, but those really aren't comparable. A gun isn't just any other object, it is one made with the sole purpose of killing. That differentiates it a little from a pen or a hamburger, I'd say.

Araysar_sl said:

I don't know about that. A gun is made with the primary purpose of defending oneself. You can easily go your entire life without having to discharge it once and be well content that it served its role admirably. If its sole purpose was killing, then buying one and being happy that you never had to use it would seem paradoxical.

Amusingly enough, the argument that you are making now would have been the same argument I would make 10 years ago.

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No it isn't. A bullet proof vest is made with the primary purpose of defending oneself, pepper spray is made with the primary purpose of defending oneself, etc, a gun isn't. A gun is only designed for defense in the sense that you use it to kill the other person before they kill you. You could argue that it's right to do so, but it's still killing, using a tool designed for that explicit purpose.

I think part of the problem is that everyone thinks that 'they're' the responsible gun owner. Everyone says they can be owned safely and responsibly, and everyone says that they do so, but statistically that just isn't the case. Just like nobody owns up to being a bad driver or being a poor worker, yet there's always traffic incidents and there's always people dragging down the workplace. Everyone thinks it's ok and that they should own a gun because they're safe and responsible and would never let it get into the wrong hands, or do the wrong thing with it, and yet you still have people dying at an order of magnitude higher than the rest of the civilized world. The people who owned or sold the guns which were used to kill these kids, or used to kill the people at the shopping center a few days back, were no doubt owned or sold by people who would have considered themselves responsible in their attitude towards guns. And yet these incidents happened. Until America realizes that it has a seriously fucked up relationship with firearms and that maybe they need to have an honest evaluation of their laws and their attitudes, this shit will keep happening there.

Araysar_sl said:

Well, the fucked up relationship is a cultural problem, not a pure function of guns. We also have a fucked up relationship with food and lead the world in obesity. And we have many other fucked up relationships with inanimate objects.

I can sit here and dig up stats of countries with much higher rates of gun ownership and lower crime rates, but I doubt that would change anything. But the point remains that blaming the tools is laughable. Start addressing the root causes of why these people carry out these acts to begin with.

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It isn't a question of blaming them, it's a question of damage control. If someone is obese, you help them cut down their access to KFC and big macs. If someone is a cokehead, you keep them the hell away from cocaine. And then once you've instituted some short term damage control, you can look at addressing the larger issue of why they eat or snort themselves into an early grave. America is like that cokehead, locked in the bathroom with his last 8ball while everyone is outside trying to convince him to come out and let them drive him to rehab. You know there's no way he's coming out until every last grain of that shit has gone up his nose, it's always gonna be 'nah, I'm good, I just need another line, then I'll be fine, really!' As a country, you've shown time and time again that you just can't fucking handle guns, so access to them should be restricted to prevent collateral damage until the underlying cultural and socioeconomic problems can be addressed.

Araysar_sl said:

300,000,000 people
280,000,000 guns

We are handling it just fine, thanks for your concern.

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Obviously

Araysar_sl said:

That last graph looks particularly convincing

No defined X-axis, no citation of where the statistics came from, hosted on someone's personal earthlink account. I wonder who "L. Siemers" is?

Anyways, here's where I insert a bunch of graphs that directly contradict yours. Repeat 3-30 times.

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I doubt you 'could' find a graph which doesn't show American gun murders being significantly higher than every other civilized country unless you made it yourself.

https://www.google.com.au/search?num....1.UlYjnlF3Qg0

Go on, can you see what they all have in common?